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After posting and getting some feedback about an army list I wanted to ask a very important question: is this viable?

Essentially the list is Grimnar and a Rune Priest with five wolf guard packs of 5 - each of which has 1 Terminator with a CML. Add three Long Fang packs of 6 with 5 ML in each unit. 25 ML shots at 1500 points between a total of 45 units.

Can leave three of the Terminator Wolf Guard stationary with the Long Fangs. Or I could pair up two squads (to make 10 Wolf Guard in one pack) and put them with Grimnar for Relentless or Preferred Enemy.

Strengths: Hordes, Elite Armies
Weakness: AV13-14 can be a bit of a problem as nothing in the list really can crack it reliably, cover saves.

Here's what I won R1 'Ardboyz with last year:

Grimnar
Rune Priest, Living Lightning/Jaws

5x Wolf Guard, CML Terminator
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term

6x LF, 5x ML
6x LF, 5x ML
6x LF, 5x Lascannon

Filler

It was a real yawner. Line up models, wait for turn 1, shoot. This list is a nasty one in that it screws up the metagame (0 vehicles wut??) and can fight brutally in H2H if need be.

Yes, missile spam wolves are totally viable. I recommend converting one LF squad to lascannons and putting Logan with them for Tank Hunter USR. 5 S10 shots deals with AV14 no problem.

As the local tournaments look to be all 1500 point games I have to watch for AV14 but I doubt I'll see a ton of it.

I can imagine that past the first game (you have to admit dropping that many ML shots the first time has to be exciting) it is really boring. But, mainly I am doing this for something inexpensive and competitive to run until the Necron codex drops to help fund my Necron goals (working on purchasing max usable units of each type before new models potentially come along).

I doubt I'll make a lot of friends bringing this list but as there is no comp score, winning is the only thing that matters. Having fun will be had with my Necrons when there isn't money at stake.

ML spam for SW is great do it!!!!

At 1500pts you could look at something like this for a core. I might even try this myself.

Core 1375pts:

Logan

3x5 WG unit w/1 term w-cml

1x6 man LF squad w/5lc
2x6 man LF squad w/5ml

2 Land Speeders w/hb/tml

That gives you 20ml's and 5lc's. Put the lc LF squad with Logan for some nice tank hunting.

You could either take a rune priest or put the WG squads in hb razorbacks.

Thoughts?

The only ones that need to be stationary are the Long Fangs(and one of them can have grimnar for the relentless) Terminator armor is relentless. ML Spam(especially in SW/Logan wing lists) is in fact awesome.

However.

As you said you have 0 heavy armor counters; AV13 is problematic, AV14 laughs in your face(until is is finally glanced).

Imweasel: your list lloks pretty good... however buying the razorbacks would make them just extra tank units. You cannot put termie armored SWs in Razors(could work if you assign the 3 Cyclone guard to the long fangs units). Grimnar could not ride with the WG(but adding relentless or tank hunters to a Long fang squad would work awesomely).

ML spam is so viable, I would call it a D bag move. Its extremely hard to counter. Even AV14 you could just glance to death. But if its all about winning, go for it

Kommissar Kel wrote:The only ones that need to be stationary are the Long Fangs(and one of them can have grimnar for the relentless) Terminator armor is relentless. ML Spam(especially in SW/Logan wing lists) is in fact awesome.

However.

As you said you have 0 heavy armor counters; AV13 is problematic, AV14 laughs in your face(until is is finally glanced).

Imweasel: your list lloks pretty good... however buying the razorbacks would make them just extra tank units. You cannot put termie armored SWs in Razors(could work if you assign the 3 Cyclone guard to the long fangs units). Grimnar could not ride with the WG(but adding relentless or tank hunters to a Long fang squad would work awesomely).

I left some details out.

I would indeed split the terms out to the LF squads. Logan goes with the lc LF's. I would simply put the WG in razorbacks to help them survive (after all, I only have 12 troops total) and to provide mobility and some dakka support.

The 12 troops total is iffy. I would have to play test it out to see if it could actually work.

Would list like that have matchup problems with landraiders and th/ss termies?

I have a question for people using these lists:

How do you defend against alphastrikes? Or any army that gives you very little to shoot at your first turn and is then in your face for the rest of the game?

sourclams' list is a monster though.

stalkerzero wrote:I doubt I'll make a lot of friends bringing this list but as there is no comp score, winning is the only thing that matters. Having fun will be had with my Necrons when there isn't money at stake.

You should be aiming to have fun regardless. If the lack of a comp score leads you to think that "winning is all that matter", I feel very sad for you.

Of course, in reality I doubt you actually mean that, but this kind of thing deserves a response, lest impressionable young players see it.

ML spam relies on having a lot of wolfguard.

Wolfguard can take a lot of combi meltas, av14 should not be a problem.

Its a solid list, just a bit too easy to play imo.

The only hard counters I can think of is an all terminator/sanguinary guard list where everything has a 2+

Lord PoPo wrote:I have a question for people using these lists:

How do you defend against alphastrikes? Or any army that gives you very little to shoot at your first turn and is then in your face for the rest of the game?

Against alphastrikes you hide/deploy in cover. You have a bunch of guys in power armor; exactly how much damage do you think they can do to you? Worst case scenario you can just Reserve. Everything can move & fire except two LF packs. And you don't much care when they get up in your face; your units can be spreading out while firing to cofferdam the damage, and your units, being mostly comprised of Wolfguard, are pretty darn decent in HtH.

There isn't much which can conceivably alpha strike this kind of list, the Long Fangs can deploy on the board edge to avoid the worst of incoming fire (range becomes an issue for most torrent of fire lists and pie plates aren't reliable when they are nicely spread out and right next to the board edge) and completely avoid 1st turn charges (except for Scouts but that can be counted pretty easily). The WG units can deploy a bit further forward in cover (or out of sight since they can move and shoot), but have 4 ablative wounds before you get to the Cyclone, who as an added bonus is also the hardest to kill. Its still a Marine list and they aren't ever going to just fall over in a single turn.

Its are very powerful list and one of the top competitive ones around, but I certainly wouldn't say its unbeatable. It depends on how the rest of the list is set up, but these SW lists are surprisingly vulnerable to dedicated assault units which can close quickly and it also struggles to deal with AV14 until its right on top of them (assuming they take some combi meltas which they should). A good Guard list will give this list a run for its money (particularly a list with a decent amount of infantry), as would a very good nilla Marines or BA list (particularly Drop Pod or DoA based lists which close up quickly). Other SW builds can also beat this. A DE list would probably eat this for breakfast if they get the first turn (too much speed, too much anti infantry thanks to poison), DE going second its probably a 50/50 call as DE obviously have to reserve against this. Orks might manage it if the KFF holds together well enough as could Eldar if they reserve everything.

Chaos also can do it with decent terrain.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/306059.page#1764958

sourclams wrote:Here's what I won R1 'Ardboyz with last year:

Grimnar
Rune Priest, Living Lightning/Jaws

5x Wolf Guard, CML Terminator
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term
5x WG, CML Term

6x LF, 5x ML
6x LF, 5x ML
6x LF, 5x Lascannon

Filler

It was a real yawner. Line up models, wait for turn 1, shoot. This list is a nasty one in that it screws up the metagame (0 vehicles wut??) and can fight brutally in H2H if need be.

Yes, missile spam wolves are totally viable. I recommend converting one LF squad to lascannons and putting Logan with them for Tank Hunter USR. 5 S10 shots deals with AV14 no problem.

Add thunder wolves to this, and this style army got 3rd at philadelphia Ard Boyz. Its very powerful.

I think a good counter to the Long Fang spam list is a Genestealer/Ymgarl reserve list. Outflanking stealers force the opponent to deploy centrally and the Ymgarls can have an easy target when they activate. In a corners mission this can be deadly for the SW as they are forced to deloy closer to the enemy than they would want for fear of 20 stealers coming on their right hand short table edge. You really only need 1 unit of 20 stealers and 1 unit of 8+ Ymgarls to get the deployment effect the rest of the bug list can take advantage of.

extrenm(54) wrote:

sourclams wrote:Here's what I won R1 'Ardboyz with last year:

(list)
Filler

It was a real yawner. Line up models, wait for turn 1, shoot. This list is a nasty one in that it screws up the metagame (0 vehicles wut??) and can fight brutally in H2H if need be.

Yes, missile spam wolves are totally viable. I recommend converting one LF squad to lascannons and putting Logan with them for Tank Hunter USR. 5 S10 shots deals with AV14 no problem.

Add thunder wolves to this, and this style army got 3rd at philadelphia Ard Boyz. Its very powerful.

That's not correct. If you check the thread I linked above, you'll see that I knocked that list out of contention in the first round. 3rd place was a mech BA army. 2nd place was Ben Mohlie's mostly-walking SW, but they were significantly different from the cookie-cutter build. No Twolves as I recall, and 2-3 Rhinos.

Yeah, all the MLs would kind of suck if you hit a list with several AV14 tanks. Hoping for glances on a 6 is not great- 20 missiles lands 13-14 hits. So maybe 2 glances. Not good at all if they have 2+ LRs full of TH/SS termies or 3+ Russes! Additionally, Terminators pose a problem in general as they get a 2+ save and rip through 3+ saves in CC. Weight of fire would be the only hope, but once they are in your grill...

Nasty list in general, though!

Luckily, most armies Ive seen lately do not have more than 1 AV Land Raider / Monolith. Russ' are AV 13 on the sides, which makes them much easier to glance with.

ML spam armies are very competitive. I like the idea of using an army with no vehicles just to throw the enemy for a loop. In the list sourclams gave earlier, the troops event have a decent chance to grab objectives, as they can move and still fire the CML's. While it would have some problems with extreme long range movement, such as grabbing objectives deep in an opponents zone, it should still perform very well.

CKO wrote:Would list like that have matchup problems with landraiders and th/ss termies?

Not so much the land raiders, but could be some issues with th/ss termies.

Overall to keep costs down and to keep things effective I am going with:

HQ:
Logan Grimnar

Troops:
Wolf Guard x10 (2 Terminator Armor, 2 CML) - to be placed with Grimnar for Relentless and move towards objectives
Wolf Guard x5 (1 Terminator Armor, 1 CML) - Terminator will stay with Long Fangs Pack #1
Wolf Guard x5 (1 Terminator Armor, 1 CML) - Terminator will stay with Long Fangs Pack #2
Wolf Guard x5 (1 Terminator Armor, 1 CML) - Terminator will stay with Long Fangs Pack #3

Heavy Support:
Long Fangs x6 (5 Lascannon)
Long Fangs x6 (5 ML)
Long Fangs x6 (5 ML)

Leaves me a total of 55 points. Could upgrade some more Terminators, purchase option wargear, or buy one transport for one of the troop squads. I think it should be pretty effective overall. The Lascannons reduce vulnerability to AV14 and leave Terminators/Demon Princes at taking only invulnerable saves.

So that's 4 Devastator boxes, two Space Wolves troop boxes, 1 Wolf Guard Box, Grimnar, 1 Lascannon bitz, 4 Cyclone Missle Launchers bitz, and 6 ML bitz I'll need to buy. Finding those bitz is proving to be tough. Other than ebay (which didn't have enough stock) the best price I can find is $14.99 per ML.

You can get ml bits on the warstore for 8.99.

I suggest using hk's on termies to represent cml's.

I would seriously think of taking some combi-meltas for the wg.

You could also break down that 10 man wg squad into 2x5man.

I personally would put Grim with the lc LF squad along with a cml termie. 2 str9 and 5 str10 tank hunter shots can do wonders for high av vehicles. You can even split that fire some.

ML spam, due to the versitility of the ML itself, does very well for the most part.

It does have its glaring weaknesses though, mainly AV 14. LR and Leman russ spam is going to make you cry, although the aformentioned is rarely used these days.

This is a nasty list, there was a TFG who ran this a lot before he moved, and was total jerk face about it too. I don't mind a good tough list, but being a turd burgerler and all it needed stopped. I found that my Skarbrand + Slaneesh heavy list was effective at taking this out. When 6 (Seekers/Fiends) units have a threat range of 24 inches the table feels pretty small.

After much thinking I am mainly going to play this until I get some tournament experience in and once my Necron list is fully painted (so it could be 5-10 years).

The advice you guys has given has made me a full blown Dakka-ite. There was another forum I frequented much, much more often because I liked the organization a bit more but the quality of posting here is so much better.

Grimnar with the LC Long Fangs may be the better idea. They were squishier and can't capture objectives than the Wolf Guard and that was my thinking on the ten man squad with Grimnar but mobility on those LC shots could be key.

So overall, I think the major problem will be cover saves. Not too worried about high armor vehicles as the tournaments are 1500 points only.

From the talk about the shop the armies are Green Tide, Kroot Suit riot, Dual Lash, and 8 mystery armies. Green Tide and Kroot turns may take an hour (while dropping 20 templates on them) but they should be pretty favorable I hope.

Oddly enough the army at this point level I could see being most problematic is Demons. Their Deep Strike in could put a hamper on things a bit.

I hope that my personality wins friends because I know this list won't.

More cyclone bitz ideas: chaos vehicle havoc launcher; IG sentinel missile launcher. Both work, but I think the latter look more Imperial.

AV14 the other counter is dropping logan, a wolf guard in terminator armor, and 6 long fangs with 5 multi-meltas on top of it in a drop pod.

Darth Badguy wrote:More cyclone bitz ideas: chaos vehicle havoc launcher; IG sentinel missile launcher. Both work, but I think the latter look more Imperial.

Thanks for the excellent ideas. I will have to check these out myself!!!

The IG Sentinel missile launcher looks really great, and all you need to do to it is cut off the pin-nub, and shave that area into a slightly concave surface(cutting the skull off the now upper side is also a good idea since it faces sideways; you can re-orient it if you keep it intact, but that depends on your knife-skills).

Also as the missile launcher bit is rarely used on IG sentinels any IG playing friends should have at least 1 or 2 of them spare.