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I'm of the opinion that the one real glaring problem in 40k right now is Psychic Powers. The current rather bare bones system worked well enough in 3rd edition, where you had a psyker, and they had their power, or they bought from a list of around 4 powers.

However, starting in 4th edition and definitely ramping up into 5th, psychic powers have gone to ridiculous extremes. If things were set up in a more fantasy magic phase style, where basic rules and such were encoded into the main book, things could be balanced out better. This isn't the case though, as powers and wargear are updated solely through the codex updates, and we end up in the place we are now, where Space Marines are the best psykers by a significant margin. While other races may have a few stand out powers, the breadth and scope of powers available to SW, BA, and SM; all soon to be eclipsed by the GK it seems, as well as their inexpensiveness are moving the game in an awful new direction.

Without systematic rules, we end up with races that have absolutely no defense against psychic powers, and it seems to me that you cannot "fairly" balance a power when half your theoretical opponents can negate it on a 4+ and some can do absolutely nothing against it. It would be like giving one army access to apocalypse units and not another. Moreover, the way it seems to me is that when one of my main armies (chaos and eldar) do finally get an update, they will have to take things to an even greater height to 'balance' things; or risk alienating consumers. (why oh why did they have to start making psychic vehicles?) I believe that if this trend is to continue, one of the major things that will need to change in 6th will be a total revamp of the psyker rules.
What do you think?

Some armies have tanks, some don't. Does that make the game unbalanced? Some armies have Monstrous creatures, some don't. Does that make the game unbalanced? I just don't agree that because some armies have a defense and some don't it automatically throws the game out of balance.

Even the armies with psychic defense have it on less than popular units. And there are only a small handful of psychic powers that are game changing anyway.

I think a fantasy type magic system would be kind of weird because you have lots of races and armies that purposely have no psychic ability.

I personally think things are fine the way they are.

Honestly this seems to be a complaint about Jaws and SW psykers than a general issue. Other than that one power i would argue that Eldar still have the best powers over all, there just not as flashy as hurricane, blood lance, or the variety of powers that give you strength ten. As for defense against powers I'm for it if it makes sense but certain armies such as Tau, or IG lacking it is fine because they have other positives to make up for that weakness.

Tyranids have shadow of warp, but it's not as good any more. Some of their powers might not kill, but they can cause havoc.

Tau have no psychic defense of any kind, nor any psykers. it's not even bad defenses, it is literally no defense. Against Space Wolves it's really bad; I'm lucky the SW player I play against often hasn't discovered JotWW . And what advantage's do Tau have to make up for the lack of psychic defense? We shoot not quite as well as the IG, but even the IG beats us up in CC? BS 3? Kroot? While psykers as a whole are ok, GW really needs to make sure all codices have SOME form of psyker defense. For example, how hard would it be for Tau Ethereals to have a psychic defense, or maybe a new psyker ally? As for psykers vs. Monsterous Creatures; an army may not have MCs or Tanks, but they do all have defenses against MCs or Tanks. That's the difference; an army is ok without a unit type as long as they have something that can defend against that unit type.

Just more proof that space wolves are...

Much hatred for those stupid psychic hoods they have.

I find psychic powers as a whole fine, but in certain instances it's just down right wrong to bring certain stuff to the table.

Oh and the tau... make me sad. We get out shot by other armies, mauled in melee, can't bring enough firepower the table to kill stuff dead before it gets into melee, ect ect. Add in no psychic defense and the picture gets worse. Granted the tau aren't terrible, but they are no space wolves...

I disagree with the OP. He says he plays Eldar. They have 1 of the best Psychic defenses in the game. I make you roll 3d6 for all powers and if you roll a 12+ you Perils. With how powerful Perils is right now, thats a really dangerous Anti-Psyker ability.

Bromsy said: While other races may have a few stand out powers, the breadth and scope of powers available to SW, BA, and SM; all soon to be eclipsed by the GK it seems, as well as their inexpensiveness are moving the game in an awful new direction.

Really because if I had to say the most overpowered psychic power in the game its not one that belongs to any of those armies. I would say Lash of Submission is the most broken, and didn't you say you play Chaos!


The fact of the matter is if you came from 4th I will admit that Psychic powers have gotten upgrades, but the fact remains that the reason for that was because in 3rd/4th edition Psychic Powers were a joke for everyone save the Eldar and a select few SM powers.

If anything needs to be nerfed for 6th edition its vehicles. In 4th vehicles were used sparingly (except for Eldar), and now they are used exclusively to the point where Mech Guard are the most overpowered top tier army in the game!

I'm not saying that it needs to be set up the same as the fantasy magic system. I'm saying the basics need to be laid out in the core book, like they are in fantasy.

As far as I recall, there is exactly one race that has no psykers, the Tau. Why don't chaos marines or orks have psychic defenses? Hell, the Tau ought to be able to cobble together some sort of Null Field Generator or something.

It doesn't compare to some armies having tanks and some having monstrous creatures, as the same basics - S versus a set target apply to all of that, and all armies have something with a S value. It would be more akin to some armies having vehicles that could only be hurt by shooting from lance weapons. Would that be fair?

As far as this being a specific complaint against the space marine factions, yeah, I pretty much said that. GW has applied their SM fascination and their codex entries have had far more versatility and power than the non space marine 5th edition entries. Is this in doubt?

The regular C:SM is the only one that I concede is okay. All future codexes will at least meet, and more likely overshoot. And all this is brought about by the fact that there is so little in the way of a baseline in the main book to compare to or build on. I mean, does everyone other than me think that Librarian Dreds are awesome and it's totally a great idea to start making psychic vehicles?

As far as the Eldar go, which powers exactly are the powers they have that you are referring to? They have Doom, which is their only really amazing power, and Guide and Fortune, which are pretty good, but hardly game winning. Other than that, let's see.
Eldritch Storm is crap
Mindwar is crap
Conceal is crap
Destructor is okay at best
Embolden is pretty meh
Enhance is pretty meh too
all of which are negated 50% of the time if there are any psychic hoods with 24".

And that is the most powerful psychic race, that has been doing this since we were beating each others heads in with rocks.
There's the IG; in the fluff a Primaris Psyker should be at least as powerful as a Librarian. There are the Orks, who create a gestalt psychic field be existing, and get weirdboys and no defensive stuff. There are the nids who can blank out entire star systems, as long as it's within 12", and only imperfectly then. And the Necrons who can create Pariahs, and apparently Cadia...

I have a sick feeling that all of this is going to be blown out of the water by the ridiculousness of the Grey Knights, who will take having the best D as well as the best A to a whole new plateau.

Seriously, this needs some oversight and balance, giving one group of factions psychic hoods and saying nope, you get nothing to others for pretty much no reason is nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... As far as Runes of Warding, yeah, they are good, but it's not 50/50 that they'll work. Plus if you want that Farseer doing something other than D, he won't just be sitting in the back. And you actually have to pay for them, which is y'know, the way things ought to work.

Lash is a pretty good power, even in the mech heavy game we now play; but it has severe limitations - it isnt the win button that people think, at least against someone who knows what it does. Then let's look at this, Chaos has no psychic defense. If someone fields a Chaos Marine army against you, you can predict what is going to happen, as their powers do not have the versatility of the current marine ones - note this as a recurring theme in what I am saying - and so you can work against it.

Your major gripe here seems to be that they haven't updated your codexes yet. Don't get your knickers in a twist, they will get around to it.
if DE and TYR are anything to go by eldar and chaos will be the next thing you cry cheese about except you won't because it's your dex.
I for one have gotten sadly accustomed to Gw's incredibly sparse codex update schedule. If you don't have the patience to wait for your army to get redone, buy another. That's what GW wants you to do. Keep buying new armies (preferably the new ones!)
Since so far every 5th edition dex has stepped up power considerably, psychics will see an improvement across all dexes. You just have to be patient!

Your gripe about Eldar powers(or at least the warlock ones) seems to stem from you not knowing how they work. Embolden, Enhance, and conceal are never declared; They are always "up" and therefore cannot be negated.

Remove them from your list and you are left with the farseer powers(wich are only negated 50% of the time by SWs, 'Nilla Marines and Blood angels are a straight d6 roll-off with you); and destructor(which can be argued as not a Psychic power anyways; it is a warlock power).

As far as Runes of Warding go; they really are a 50/50 chance; the average result is 10-11 ,meaning roughly 50% of the time a 3-10 is rolled, and 50% of the time an 11-18 is rolled. Nearly all of the latter half cause a wound on the Psyker attempting the power.

Look, if they make Eldar have a psychic power that kills a given unit on a 4+ and can be used 6 times a turn, I won't be happy. I would call cheese. Legitimately, I want balanced rules. 4/5 of psyker rules are made with codexes, which is not a well designed system. As it is, I also play Nids, Orks, IG, Regular Marines (to a degree), and I am building a PH World Eaters army based off the BA codex. I want a legit system that can create fair and equitable armies across the board, not just the army where the writer can put in as much fanboi nonsense as he can sell GW on.


I am well aware that Embolden, Enhance, and Conceal are passive. Embolden is meh, because frankly if you take enough casualties to need it, your unit is finished. Enhance is meh because it raises I and Ws, which are generally not stats the Eldar need. I'd trade it for a power that raises S or T by one. Conceal absolutely is crap, as with the current rules it is ridiculously easy to get a 4+ cover save, so paying for a 5+ is, once again, crap. As far as the strait roll off - 10+d6 for each... gives 50/50 odds.

For runes of Warding, the enemy needs to roll 13+, not an 11+. This would be far more useful against armies without ld10 on all of their psykers, which is once again a moot point when discussing the topic at hand.

You have runes of warding all wrong: it is any roll of 12 or higher, not 13 that causes perils, and an 11 means the power fails. Roughly 50% of the time your opponent will roll an 11 or higher. Any higher than an 11 and they also take a wound(especially since most Psykers don't even have invulnerable saves, and the ones that do have to re-roll successful ones).

As far as the roll-off on a Psychic hood, it is less than a 50% chance, but the odds cannot even be accurately rated(at least not very easily) because there is too many variables. At the very least if you or the Librarian player drops a die and you get a 6 or the Librarian player gets a 1 you win. If you tie you win, so the Librarian player really does need to beat you in the roll-off, that puts your Runes of warding at a higher chance to thwart Psychic powers than a Psychic hood.

I play IG I can get 4 Psychic powers to choose from on 2 different units. I also get 0 Psychic defense. I don't even care. If my opponent brings a Psyker, that Psyker, whatever unit that psyker is with, and whatever transport they are in are priority targets. My anti-transport Firepower gets directed towards their ride and any transport carrying CC troops; one their ride is gone I start to work on the unit until the psyker is dead. That is my anti-psyker defense.

My wife Plays orks; she doesn't even get to control which power she uses, and she doesn't have any Psychic defense either; other than the same "kill the bastard" defense.

No one is gonna debate that Jaws is a silly power, however the main issue seems to be that certain armies have yet to be updated. Yes tau is a little under powered but its also a older codex, im fairly certain when they get their update they will be fine like every other fifth edition codex is more or less. Though im not opposed to the tau getting a alien who can cancel some out powers, i would prefer them not to have active powers, as i like that the tau are one of three races in the game, (Tau, Necron, Dark eldar) that don't use or need the warp to function.

I kinda preffered the old system were you had to buy the powers. There was at least some balance between what you took, rather than now when no one ever takes anything beside JotWW, Living Lightning, or Murderous Hurricane (or whatever it's called).

The powers that innately come with certain psykers are calculated into their points value already. This is more of a power creep issue than a psychic issue (as older codexes seem to be paying an arm and a leg for the equivallent of something dirt cheap in newer dexes. One of the best comparisons are SM bikes to Ravenwing Bikes).

Okay, I admit partial defeat on the Runes or Warding, I was sure it was higher than a 12, but it's indeed 12 or higher.
The main point I am stressing remains that this is a specific category of powers that varies wildly between codexes and seems to lack balance, as the uses and defenses are basically made up as any author writes a codex.

I don't agree that all of the powers offered in the codexes have equal utility (which is why I favor the buy a power route), and I hardly feel that a power that comes with a psyker can possibly be balanced against all opponents, when as I stated, different armies have differing or non existent defenses. But what evs I guess. To each their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
.... and I just noticed I misspelled psychic in the main post. Alcohol, I blame you!

Maybe something like the Minor Psychic Powers table like they had before?

I was thinking something like that, maybe not minor, but general powers, and general wargear. I mean, they did this with the USRs, and weapons, and it works out.

Psychic powers too extreme? Tell that to my poor guardsmen. We got completely shafted in psychic powers, even though primaris psykers should be some of the most dangerous and, more importantly, varied psykers in the galaxy.

I agree, it's mostly whining, but...

Bromsy wrote:it seems to me that you cannot "fairly" balance a power when half your theoretical opponents can negate it on a 4+ and some can do absolutely nothing against it.

... this is real. Not eveyone has tanks, but everyone has access to anti-tank weapons. Not everyone can field hordes of infantry, but everyone has access to anti-horde weapons.

The fact that some armies are practically immune to psychic powers and some armies are utterly defenseless doesn't seem well thought through to me.

Hound of War28 wrote:Tau, Necron, Dark eldar) that don't use or need the warp to function.

WHAT?

Ailaros wrote:I agree, it's mostly whining, but...

Bromsy wrote:it seems to me that you cannot "fairly" balance a power when half your theoretical opponents can negate it on a 4+ and some can do absolutely nothing against it.

... this is real. Not eveyone has tanks, but everyone has access to anti-tank weapons. Not everyone can field hordes of infantry, but everyone has access to anti-horde weapons.

The fact that some armies are practically immune to psychic powers and some armies are utterly defenseless doesn't seem well thought through to me.

Word.

Personally, I think Psychic Powers need to be buffed in the next addition; you are using up a HQ (Or depending on the army, Elite) Choice to get them. They should pose a significant threat to where you NEED to take him out.

Edit: While at the same time giving everyone at least a little resistance to Psychic Powers.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hound of War28 wrote:Tau, Necron, Dark eldar) that don't use or need the warp to function.

WHAT?

Gameplay wise, DE have no psychic powers whatsoever. They do have haemonculi, who possess psychic-power-like items. Fluff wise, they use it alot behind the scenes.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hound of War28 wrote:Tau, Necron, Dark eldar) that don't use or need the warp to function.

WHAT?

Gameplay wise, DE have no psychic powers whatsoever. They do have haemonculi, who possess psychic-power-like items. Fluff wise, they use it alot behind the scenes.

Including having their entire civilization inside the warp. That was what I reacted to.

Bring back 2nd ed pysker rules!! It was so good like a game within a game

Melissia wrote:Psychic powers too extreme? Tell that to my poor guardsmen. We got completely shafted in psychic powers, even though primaris psykers should be some of the most dangerous and, more importantly, varied psykers in the galaxy.

I believe I covered that when I said

"There's the IG; in the fluff a Primaris Psyker should be at least as powerful as a Librarian."

Please note, people... I said "extreme". This does not mean the same thing as "extremely powerful". It means that there is too much variance one way or the other based on how a given author writes their codex. Is this really not coming through in what I am saying? I don't care about the relative strengths of psychic powers in the game, what I care about is balancing them properly and equitably. Creating a more in depth system of rules and putting it in the main book would address this, as I have stated. It would be great if there was a section in the book longer than 2/3 of a page covering them. Include "Universal Powers", including a standard defensive one, maybe some wargear that could be used by any race - an equivalent of defensive grenades or what have you, with the points cost listed in the codex.

Jubear wrote:Bring back 2nd ed pysker rules!! It was so good like a game within a game

Right, see, that's the problem.

It feels like psychic powers were a super-complex, awkward add-on to the normal rules (not unlike many things back in the day). As everything has become streamlined, it's revealing more and more that it wasn't part of the regular game, but almost like an expansion to it that never fit in quite right.

If they want psykers to be as integral to the game as tanks or monstrous creatures, they really need actually flush it out with a proper, comprehensive rules set. This whole, you take a leadership test and then magic happens made it simpler, but, unfortunately, not better.

Fantasy has quite a chunk of the core rules dedicated to Magic, while 40k Psychic powers are kinda shoehorned into the various other phases (either has buffs or as some sort of ranged weapon). This is really easy to see in the Daemon Codex, as (since nothing really needs to take a psychic test) the Psychic powers effectively replaces guns and artefact effects.

This whole, you take a leadership test and then magic happens made it simpler, but, unfortunately, not better.

I'd also say it makes it less interesting. As it is, virtually every psycher takes a test on ld 10. In essence psychic powers aren't really psychic powers, more of just weapons with an extra roll to hit and gets hot. There is very little real threat, and they aren't that effective (so much as, say, a pair of twin linked auto cannons).

Psychic powers aren't impressive, and there is virtually no risk to using them. I also agree that buying powers was far better than just choosing two. Imagine if a farseer were 100 points (the same as marine psykers), and was able to choose 2 powers. Anyone going to take mindwar? It creates a whole issue of balancing by removing a balancing factor.