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I'm currently a 40K player and was wondering what are some of the major differences between fantasy and 40K? We have a large Fantasy following in my area and I'm thinking about starting the game.

Thanks!

fantasy is more strategic in certain areas. it's not just about knowing how to pick which targets to shoot at first.

Deployment, movement, deciding which if any units need to be in combat with which enemy, which spells to cast at which targets(and which lore of magic to bring to begin with), then shooting, and then resolving combat.

The big picture matters alot more. Army designs must compliment an overall tactic and then you need to account for roadblocks to that tactic as they happen in the game.

basically, fantasy is chess and 40k is halo.

Ah another one of these debates (goes to get popcorn).

Just a quick reminder this is my opinion so it may clash with others.

40K

Movement - units can move the same distance (depending on unit type)
Shooting - TLOS with no modifiers, 4+ cover all around.
CC - fairly strait forward, Person who kills the most wins.
Psychic Powers - imo they are a joke. There are only a few items/units that can stop them, no real risk to the Psycher ether.
Army Balance - whats this? Currently the newest codex trumps all others. If you have an older codex you have a very difficult uphill battle against the newer codex's.


Fantasy

Movement - every unit has a different M value. Elves, Men and Dwarfs are not made equally. This even extends into specific unit types like cavalry where a barded stead has one less Movement (but one more Armor) than a non barded stead.
Shooting - TLOS in this edition, instead of a cover save you get negative modifiers, (which include range). Shooting is meant to soften up targets before they get into close combat. You will rarely kill off an entire unit with RnF shooting.
CC - similar to 40k. However there are situations where you may kill more troops and still lose combat, due to being flanked, disrupted etc.
Magic - its a fickle thing. It can completely devastate your opponent or it can backfire and cause you harm on turn 1. Just depends on the winds (how well you roll to generate Power Dice)
Army Balance - so far I have found 8th to be much more balanced. Some things boarder on broken (Teclis....). There are no current 8th edition books out yet so we'll have to wait and see what the power of the new books will be like.

Oh and one other thing. 40k is squad based (unless you play a hoard of Orks or Nids you units are usually 10ish guys). Fantasy units usually run between 5 - 50 (depending if your running cavalry or a hoard of slaves). You also tend to play at a higher points level (several mundane lords are near abbadon level points when kitted out). You use a percent system instead of a FoC.

Hope this helps.

The biggest problem with these debates come from people assuming either game is particularly subtle, or sophisticated. You can learn the fundamentals of either game by the end of your first practice game, and have them mastered within the next couple of games. Both are primarily beer and pretzels games.

If you like the aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy and the idea of painting up one of the forces appeals to you, then you'll likely have positive experience, the same as 40K.

There is nothing sophisticated about 40k. At all.

A big draw to fantasy for me, or rather a con to 4k that makes me stay away, is that few kids play fantasy. 40k has far too many children for my taste.

Some say it's due to the appeal of sci fi to younger crowds, others say that fantasy requires more finesse that teens tend to lack when dealing with strategy and tactics.

Anyone can shoot all their guns at the biggest target. Not everyone understands the intricacies of deployment and movement.

Thanks for the feedback. Is there an army better suited to beginners?

I'm personally leaning towards Skaven for non-tactical reasons. Wood Elves would be my second choice.

Are the Battalion sets a good place to start?

Skaven are actually not that bad.
Awesome models, relatively new, awesome models, a strong army and awesome models.

In addition you have a good starting point with the Island of Blood Starter Set (you get the mini rule book, a nice choice of Skaven models including exclusive weapon teams and several characters and you can switch the High Elves for more Skaven or sell them on Ebay). The Battalion is not bad either, and might be a good second purchase.

Only problem might be the nature of Skaven as a horde army as they require a rather big number of Clanrats and Slaves depending on your list.

Wood Elves a might not be that good of a choice as they´re rather old and afaik were hurt badly by 8th edition.

The battallions are good for most armies, the Skaven one is rather good and you might want to consider getting the Island of Blood starting set also. Those to together with a Warplightning cannon/Plagueclaw catapult, Doomwheel or Hellpit Abomination makes a great all around skaven army, though you should also get a Grey Seer.

A word of advice on Wood Elves, they suffer rather badly from the current rules so they are one of the hardest armies around to use effectivly(unless you go full out on angry trees, then they seem to be doing alright).

I'm not sure what armies that makes the best "beginner" army, usually its best getting the one you enjoy the most. Some armies will take shorter time to master though nothing is really that hard to understand once you get started.

Iratus Custodis wrote:I'm not sure what armies that makes the best "beginner" army, usually its best getting the one you enjoy the most. Some armies will take shorter time to master though nothing is really that hard to understand once you get started.

I really don't think that Fantasy has a best beginner army, it certainly has a few I really wouldn't recommend to a beginner though, primarily Wood Elves and Beastmen simply due to the tactical finesse required by those two. If I were forced to suggest one army for a beginner it would be Ogre Kingdoms simply because they are easy to play with and you don't need to buy/build/paint too many models before you have a decent sized army. IMO Empire are also good for getting to grips with the game since they have a strong presence in every phase of the game, however things like the detachment rules and the steam tank could be a little bit too complex for a complete beginner.

Nick Ellingworth wrote:things like the detachment rules and the steam tank could be a little bit too complex for a complete beginner.

Well he has played 40k so not totally noob.
Trust me as a player of both sistems when i tell you that he who can get his head around Nob wound allocation can figure out anything.

Aerethan - are you still playing 7th? Everything you said was true about prior editions.

WFB 8th is very similar to 40K now. List building and target allocation are the two most important skills. Tactics, planning and even deployment are all secondary.

Still more tactical to last ed, then it was take demons and win.

HoverBoy wrote:Still more tactical to last ed, then it was take demons and win.

Or Vampires.

Yea or them.
Anyway i'm willing to give to the list building point, but saying deployment and movement aren't a big part of fantasy is just not true. With a movement sistem so much more restrictive/complex and units only having a 90 degree ark of sight how you maneuver is extreemly important to your army's overall performance and planning ahead is almost mandatory.

Come to think of it deployment is pretty important in 40k too, as we all know when it comes to warfare the most important things are – location, location, location.

No I'm not still playing 7th, I just don't play 40k. Movement has ALWAYS been the most important factor in strategy for fantasy for at least the last 10 years. Outmaneuvering your opponent is far more important than target selection with magic and shooting.

Flanking seems less important in a game where models all have a 360 arc of sight.

"what's that? they are on our right? shoot em!" isn't exactly possible with fantasy units and their forward arc.

Like I said, chess versus halo. In chess units have limits to their moves, in Halo he with the bigger gun and faster reflexes wins.

sebster wrote:The biggest problem with these debates come from people assuming either game is particularly subtle, or sophisticated. You can learn the fundamentals of either game by the end of your first practice game, and have them mastered within the next couple of games. Both are primarily beer and pretzels games.

I think this is a great, great, great point.

The sheer number of dice rolls precludes it from being chess. A neanderthall recently cloned from DNA findings can beat the greatest of great Warhammer players if one always rolls bad and one always rolls good. There's nothing wrong with beer and pretzels. I'm pretty sure they are the most important members of the food group.

I don't think Warhammer particularly has a 'beginner' army, while in 40k the rule always seems to be 'grab marines, dance on enemy corpses.'

The best advice I would give to a starter in fantasy would be to pick an army you like and can be enthusiastic about, and avoid Wood Elves until you have a chance to watch them play. Only then will you be able to tell if they are the kind of challenge you can handle.

(Personally, I think the best reason to pick fantasy over 40k is kids. I hate playing 8 year olds- they cry, they try to cheat, they have short attention spans and they always have space marines. Very few kids play fantasy, and those that do seem to have better attention spans. For me, that makes for a more satisfying game.)

aerethan wrote:There is nothing sophisticated about 40k. At all.

A big draw to fantasy for me, or rather a con to 4k that makes me stay away, is that few kids play fantasy. 40k has far too many children for my taste.

Some say it's due to the appeal of sci fi to younger crowds, others say that fantasy requires more finesse that teens tend to lack when dealing with strategy and tactics.

This is exactly the sort of problem that comes up when people try to compare these games - people use it as an excuse to claim their game (and therefore they themselves) is more refined. It's rubbish.

If you want a refined, sophisticated game that will take years to master, that few if any kids play, then go play Go, or Chess or Bridge. If you want a beer and pretzels game where you have big mighty heroes wailing on each other with big weapons, then both 40K and WHFB will deliver. There are differences and they're worth talking about, but they've got nothing to do with self-aggrandising rubbish about tactical finesse.

Anyone can shoot all their guns at the biggest target. Not everyone understands the intricacies of deployment and movement.

Anyone who can get past middle school with more or less passing grades can understand and play any GW game at a decent level. As much as people like to pretend otherwise, WHFB just isn't that sophisticated, nor is it meant to be.


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aerethan wrote:No I'm not still playing 7th, I just don't play 40k. Movement has ALWAYS been the most important factor in strategy for fantasy for at least the last 10 years. Outmaneuvering your opponent is far more important than target selection with magic and shooting.

Flanking seems less important in a game where models all have a 360 arc of sight.

"what's that? they are on our right? shoot em!" isn't exactly possible with fantasy units and their forward arc.

So you have little or no understanding of 40K then, you've just assumed it must inferior because you can to face your target? That's just a terrible argument, when facing to fire is an issue of marginal importance in WHFB...

I know nothing about fantasy but i'd have to say time from what i've seen. Armies can be significantly bigger in fantasy compared to 40k.

I think I'm going to go the route of Island of Blood. This way I can dip my feet in the pool without dropping a fortune on the game. I think I like Skaven but I'm not 100% sure so this will give me two very different armies to run. Thanks for everyone's advice!

Good choice, IoB is a real bargain and the models are excellent. Should be a great introduction for you.

I changed my mind. I stopped by the LGW store today and watched a couple of games of Fantasy. I was surprised to see only Fantasy being played (no 40K).

I fell in love with Dwarfs!

What’s the feedback on Dwarfs?
Is there Battalion box a good deal?

Sorry for the repeated questions, but I want to get it right. Or mostly right ;-)

I have no idea about the battalion box, but Dwarves rock! They have some fantastic war machines, and some great models. Also, slayers. I have lost many dragons to those little orange-haired punks....

*shakes fist*

Dwarves are indeed a solid choice, rock hard blocks of infantry that thanks to the 8th ed charge rules have a terrifying 15" charge range, some of the best shooting/war machines in the game and probably the best magic defence.

The battalion box is definitely a good start, throw in a decent fighty character and you've got a nice core for your army to be built around. Can't really offer much advice beyond that as I don't know much about them.

mcyeatman wrote:I changed my mind. I stopped by the LGW store today and watched a couple of games of Fantasy. I was surprised to see only Fantasy being played (no 40K).

I fell in love with Dwarfs!

What’s the feedback on Dwarfs?
Is there Battalion box a good deal?

Sorry for the repeated questions, but I want to get it right. Or mostly right ;-)

Dwarfs are awesome if you don't mind the lack of magic. Though they have some of the most cost effective dispelling in the game ( natural +2 to dispel magic plus extra dispel dice just from fielding runesmiths/lords and using runes ). They are a mix of top quality artillery, shooting troops and great close combat ability with an army-wide toughness 4 and extremely good combat characters you can make. You can either go more ranged and wither your enemy with firepower, heavy on close combat or a mix of the two. Letting your artillery and shooting wear the enemy down before you unleash your tough troops on them. The battalion box is a great starting point. Maybe after that get some miners if they take your fancy ( greatweapon unit that can come on from any table edge. Fun for rear/flank charge and warmachine hunting.)

The battalion can give you all the spare parts you'll need if you like to convert your own characters. You'll likely find use of a 2nd battalion to expand your forces as youll have plenty of uses for organ guns and cannons. Plus the battalion covers all the core options you can field. None of them being particularly bad choices either. It just depends on what you want to field. Gunline, Close combat or something in between?

The rare/special infantry are all quite fun. Ironbreakers though I'm not sold on for the cost effectiveness this edition. Slayers are hit and miss ( They fall fast to shooting of any kind ) and hammerers wont do you wrong. Once I'm fielding past 2000 points I'm trying a slayers unit. If it doesn't work well enough for me Ill be swapping it for another unit of greatweapon warriors. Still going for the models though as I love slayers .

Would 2 battalions from the start make sense to get the points high enough to make sure I have folks to play?

I was also going to add a Dwarf Lord to the starting army.

Thanks!

I don't know the points but a pair of battalions should give you more than enough basic infantry to work with along with a couple of artillery pieces. Add a few characters and you should be set to play a few games.

Personally I'd aim to get a 1000 point list together and play a few games with it before you expand. In my experience most people are willing to play games at that points level, particularly if their opponent is new to that army or system.

2 batallions would be more than enough! One and a Lord should be enough to start off with... then get yourself an Anvil, especially if you are up against a high magic army. The best defence of the dwarves is stopping everyone else from casting spells.

Misguidance wrote:2 batallions would be more than enough! One and a Lord should be enough to start off with... then get yourself an Anvil, especially if you are up against a high magic army. The best defence of the dwarves is stopping everyone else from casting spells.

Anvils can be a risky investment all the same. Auto die's to some spells and the chance of it killing itself every turn. Whereas the Runelord by himself stands a good chance to block anything that isn't irresistible forced alone. Freeing up points for more troops or shooting. Agreed 1 battalion and a character model or a converted one would be enough to start you out with dwarfs OP.

Lexx wrote:

Misguidance wrote:2 batallions would be more than enough! One and a Lord should be enough to start off with... then get yourself an Anvil, especially if you are up against a high magic army. The best defence of the dwarves is stopping everyone else from casting spells.

Anvils can be a risky investment all the same. Auto die's to some spells and the chance of it killing itself every turn. Whereas the Runelord by himself stands a good chance to block anything that isn't irresistible forced alone. Freeing up points for more troops or shooting. Agreed 1 battalion and a character model or a converted one would be enough to start you out with dwarfs OP.

I agree with Lexx here. You can make warriors of any flavor, same with longbeards, rangers, quarrelers w/ gw, thunderers w/ shields, and either a cannon or organ gun from the battalion. It is a great purchase. If you are handy with converting and painting, you could probably even make any of those plastic models represent iron breakers, miners, or hammerers to start you off. You can even model a couple of characters from it.