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I've been looking at the Black Templars codex since their FAQ update and I've got a question that could make BT terminators more useful than Vanilla terminators.

So their update changes terminators to having relentless, but according to the Codex

The wearer automatically has Terminator Honours at no extra cost.

Now terminator honours gives +1 attack, and Leadership 9 if the LD stat is lower. Now my question, is the +1 attack incorporated into the terminator's attack stat? As giving terminator armour (or honours) to the Marshall, Castellan, and Chaplain gives them the bonus attack, but do the other terminators start with 3 base attacks or 2?

My thoughts on this are since it says neither whether it is incorporated, or not incorporated, it would not be incorporated as the HQ choices do not have it added in.

The +1 is already built into the Terminators' statline.

HQ Characters don't have it added to their statline because none of them come standard with terminator armour.

My question to that though is this; since the codex says nothing about it being included, aren't you supposed to follow the rules laid out under terminator armour (And by extension terminator honours) and apply the +1 attack and up leadership to 9 (though they already have LD 9)? I know the codex is old, don't get me wrong about that, but even if you do not give the HQ choices the armour, you CAN still give them the honours which led me to the question since in one area it's not included. Wouldn't that mean everything is written like that?

Lone Dragoon wrote:My question to that though is this; since the codex says nothing about it being included, aren't you supposed to follow the rules laid out under terminator armour (And by extension terminator honours) and apply the +1 attack and up leadership to 9 (though they already have LD 9)?

The codex doesn't specifically state that it's included, but the fact that they have two attacks instead of one certainly suggests it.

I know the codex is old, don't get me wrong about that, but even if you do not give the HQ choices the armour, you CAN still give them the honours which led me to the question since in one area it's not included. Wouldn't that mean everything is written like that?

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. The attack for Honours isn't included in the HQ characters' profile for reason I already stated: They don't have it as standard. If you choose to give them Honours (or TDA, which also gives them Honours) then they gain the +1 attack.

You don't give Terminators the armour, or the Honours, though. They already have it as standard. So the extra attack conferred by the Honours is already included in their profile.

Well... You are assuming that the +1 attack from the terminator armour isn't already included in the profile. However, the terminators don't even have a terminator armor in their description, so RAW they aren't wearing terminator armours, and thus they can sweep but don't have the invul. However, I don't think anyone will play them this way ever, but it is still required that you go by RAI. And since we're in RAI territory, the kind of worming you are attempting can't really be argued.

insaniak wrote:The codex doesn't specifically state that it's included, but the fact that they have two attacks instead of one certainly suggests it.

So by that logic the marshall has 3 attacks on his profile, which certainly suggests he has terminator honors as well. We can't assume that it's included simply because they have terminator armour as wargear.

insaniak wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:

I know the codex is old, don't get me wrong about that, but even if you do not give the HQ choices the armour, you CAN still give them the honours which led me to the question since in one area it's not included. Wouldn't that mean everything is written like that?

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. The attack for Honours isn't included in the HQ characters' profile for reason I already stated: They don't have it as standard. If you choose to give them Honours (or TDA, which also gives them Honours) then they gain the +1 attack.

What I meant there was, they don't have any consistency in the codex. The HQs have 3 attacks listed on their profile, and undoubtedly have served time as veterans (Which do gain terminator honours), but they do not have terminator honours included in their profile. I know fluff does not equal rules though, but how can we assume this is either what is intended or written? I personally have changed my view after looking at the sword brethren entry in the codex, but someone still may have to play the devil's advocate to see if we can work through it, or if it comes down to there is no answer.

Terminator Honors are included in the Terminator profile because the Terminator Armor effects are already included in the profile.

Or do you really want to deal with the fact that your terminators don't have Terminator Armor listed as part of their wargear?

When it comes to Black Templar Terminators, you have two choices here:


1) You assume that they have the 'Terminator Armor' Wargear option which already includes Terminator Honors (because, well, they're terminators by definition and Terminators wear Terminator armor).

2) You play that by the they don't expressly have the 'Terminator Armor' Wargear option (because it isn't listed in their profile) in which case they don't get the bonus for Terminator Armor either.


I understand at this point it may seem a bit confusing, back in the day EVERY Space Marine codex was written this way and they were all the same. Terminators were written under the 'assumption' that players would understand that Terminators naturally have the Terminator upgrade which is what gives them their bonus attack.

yakface wrote:1) You assume that they have the 'Terminator Armor' Wargear option which already includes Terminator Honors (because, well, they're terminators by definition and Terminators wear Terminator armor).

As I said, I agree with that point since Sword brethren don't have terminator armour and as such only have 1 attack. I remember the days back in 3rd edition when terminators didn't even get an invulnerable save, and bikes for a while counted against double toughness kills. So assume that they have terminator armor as wargear. Under that assumption they have terminator honours and it is not included in the profile. Why then are we able to give the HQ choices terminator honors? People will (it's what I'm doing to represent one side of the arguement) point to that and say that because you can to buy them there, they are not included in the profile of the model. That then points to Terminator honors not being included in the profile from one side. On the other side we only have an assumption that it is included in the profile, because nothing says that it is included and there are rules for adding it to the profile.

yakface wrote:2) You play that by the they don't expressly have the 'Terminator Armor' Wargear option (because it isn't listed in their profile) in which case they don't get the bonus for Terminator Armor either.

Here again I would raise a problem with that interpretation, and that is with terminator assault squads. If we assume they don't have terminator armour because it's not listed, they DO still have a 2+ save in their profile so we wouldn't get the 5+ invulnerable. However the terminator assault squads then have the TH/SS option which is not pretty. Having a 2+ armor save, 3+ invulnerable save, Thunderhammers, and can then sweeping advance would be a truly disgusting thing. If the door is opened that is one possible interpretation that could be presented.

As a long-standing Black Templar player, I wish this were the case. However, I think trying to eke out any more then 2 attacks (base) per model seems like reading into the rules too far and to our advantage.

Alas, I wish it were true, but we have 2 attack terminators just like every other space marine codex.

Lone Dragoon wrote:So by that logic the marshall has 3 attacks on his profile, which certainly suggests he has terminator honors as well.

Since there is no mention of him being a terminator, having terminator armour, or having terminator honours in his entry anywhere, no, that's not the same logic at all.

We can't assume that it's included simply because they have terminator armour as wargear.

Sure we can. We've been doing it for about 7 years now, since the 4th edition Space Marine codex was released.

Lone Dragoon wrote:What I meant there was, they don't have any consistency in the codex. The HQs have 3 attacks listed on their profile, and undoubtedly have served time as veterans (Which do gain terminator honours), but they do not have terminator honours included in their profile.

Because they don't have Terminator Honours as standard. I'm honestly not seeing what you're claiming is inconsistent here. Their extra attacks are nothing to do with Terminator Honours because nothing in their entry suggests that they have Terminator Honours.

The Terminators' extra attack comes from the Honours because they are Terminators... and so have Terminator Armour, which includes Terminator Honours.

insaniak wrote:I'm honestly not seeing what you're claiming is inconsistent here.

I'll see if I can explain this as best as possible. I'm going to use the Chaplain as an example here. The Chap has 3 attacks listed on his profile, and no mention of anything that gives him terminator honors which I agree with. So if I buy the TDA or honors he gets them, and adds them to his profile making him 4 attacks base. We have one point where with terminator honors we have to add the things in ourselves. Not a big deal. Now we have terminators, that by yakface's definition have terminator armor (Not disputing that), who have a set profile. As they have terminator armor, they have Terminator honors. In this case it is (supposedly since it doesn't say) included in the profile. You have two different ways as to how Terminator honors work, one that is not included (Chap) and one that is (again I'm going to use supposedly) included with terminators. It's an inconsistency, as for one unit it works one way but for another unit it works differently.

insaniak wrote:Sure we can. We've been doing it for about 7 years now, since the 4th edition Space Marine codex was released.

In 4th edition the rulebook itself was vague on a lot of wording, and the codices were worse. In that day we had to make intuitive leaps, but with the advent of 5th edition they have buckled down on the ambiguity that spawned by using near legal document language. By doing this they have removed much (not all) of the interpretations used over how the rules work.

Given the way the codex was written, I'll agree that the rules in this case are a little vague.

But really, are you going to argue with your opponent to gain a single attack on your terminators, when they can already strike at S5/I5 with rerolls to hit and wound?

On top of this, BT Terminators just got even better with the new FAQ storm shield upgrade.

Furthermore, GW has a precedent for characters with non-random stat-modifying wargear (bikes, marks of Chaos, etc) having the bonuses included in their profiles.

And finally, if you try to pull off this kind of RAW loophole with your opponent, they can always ask you to point out where the Terminators have Terminator Armour. (Hint: it's never specified).

So in conclusion, it really comes down to this: don't be an a**hole. BT terminators get 2 base attacks, just like everyone else.

Lone Dragoon wrote: You have two different ways as to how Terminator honors work, one that is not included (Chap) and one that is (again I'm going to use supposedly) included with terminators. It's an inconsistency, as for one unit it works one way but for another unit it works differently.

That's not an inconsistency. That's one unit having the bonus included because they come with the item in question as standard, and one for which you add it on if you purchase the item for them.

Lone Dragoon wrote: By doing this they have removed much (not all) of the interpretations used over how the rules work.

You will find pages and pages of discussion on this very forum that would disagree with that assessment...

5th is undoubtedly better written than 4th edition was... but there is still plenty of room for interpretation in an awful lot of places. That's just the nature of the game, and the style of rules writing that GW employs.

Xca|iber wrote:Given the way the codex was written, I'll agree that the rules in this case are a little vague.

But really, are you going to argue with your opponent to gain a single attack on your terminators, when they can already strike at S5/I5 with rerolls to hit and wound?

On top of this, BT Terminators just got even better with the new FAQ storm shield upgrade.

Furthermore, GW has a precedent for characters with non-random stat-modifying wargear (bikes, marks of Chaos, etc) having the bonuses included in their profiles.

And finally, if you try to pull off this kind of RAW loophole with your opponent, they can always ask you to point out where the Terminators have Terminator Armour. (Hint: it's never specified).

So in conclusion, it really comes down to this: don't be an a**hole. BT terminators get 2 base attacks, just like everyone else.

First of all, I've changed my opinion I said. I agree that it's included in the profile, but as this is a discussion about how something that has changed works, I'm presenting a different stance and trying to support that position with true RAW based on the wording in the codex. The only way you get a good discussion is to have two sides to it. Second, it's a single attack on each terminator you chose to field meaning that could be upwards of 30 attacks, per player turn which in a 6 turn game suddenly becomes 360 over the course of a game, not a single attack.

About the pointing out terminator armor, I'll requote what I wrote earlier; If we assume they don't have terminator armour because it's not listed, they DO still have a 2+ save in their profile so we wouldn't get the 5+ invulnerable. However the terminator assault squads then have the TH/SS option which is not pretty. Having a 2+ armor save, 3+ invulnerable save, Thunderhammers, and can then sweeping advance would be a truly disgusting thing. So that's not the point of the discussion, whether or not terminator honors are included is.

Last thing to touch on, I'm not bing an a-hole, I'm offering a counter-point in a discussion. Keep in mind, Black templars are the only Codex that talk about terminator honors, so without an FAQ to point it out for everyone out there there is going to be ambiguity on which interpretation of the vague wording is correct.

Lone Dragoon wrote:
About the pointing out terminator armor, I'll requote what I wrote earlier; If we assume they don't have terminator armour because it's not listed, they DO still have a 2+ save in their profile so we wouldn't get the 5+ invulnerable. However the terminator assault squads then have the TH/SS option which is not pretty. Having a 2+ armor save, 3+ invulnerable save, Thunderhammers, and can then sweeping advance would be a truly disgusting thing. So that's not the point of the discussion, whether or not terminator honors are included is.

Not to mention that you would be able to fit 10 of those suckers into a land raider or even a rhino!

Lone Dragoon wrote: By doing this they have removed much (not all) of the interpretations used over how the rules work.

insaniak wrote:You will find pages and pages of discussion on this very forum that would disagree with that assessment...

5th is undoubtedly better written than 4th edition was... but there is still plenty of room for interpretation in an awful lot of places. That's just the nature of the game, and the style of rules writing that GW employs.

They might disagree with that assessment, but compared to the constantly shifting days of 3rd where if you didn't buy the newest White Dwarf every month you missed rules clarifications and played it wrong, it's godly . 4th was a step in the right direction, but there were still a lot of problems with how things worked because they wanted to use 5 different terms for one item.

On a side note, am I putting words in your mouth? You keep quoting me and putting your name there lol

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Given the way the codex was written, I'll agree that the rules in this case are a little vague.

But really, are you going to argue with your opponent to gain a single attack on your terminators, when they can already strike at S5/I5 with rerolls to hit and wound?

On top of this, BT Terminators just got even better with the new FAQ storm shield upgrade.

Furthermore, GW has a precedent for characters with non-random stat-modifying wargear (bikes, marks of Chaos, etc) having the bonuses included in their profiles.

And finally, if you try to pull off this kind of RAW loophole with your opponent, they can always ask you to point out where the Terminators have Terminator Armour. (Hint: it's never specified).

So in conclusion, it really comes down to this: don't be an a**hole. BT terminators get 2 base attacks, just like everyone else.

First of all, I've changed my opinion I said. I agree that it's included in the profile, but as this is a discussion about how something that has changed works, I'm presenting a different stance and trying to support that position with true RAW based on the wording in the codex. The only way you get a good discussion is to have two sides to it. Second, it's a single attack on each terminator you chose to field meaning that could be upwards of 30 attacks, per player turn which in a 6 turn game suddenly becomes 360 over the course of a game, not a single attack.

About the pointing out terminator armor, I'll requote what I wrote earlier; If we assume they don't have terminator armour because it's not listed, they DO still have a 2+ save in their profile so we wouldn't get the 5+ invulnerable. However the terminator assault squads then have the TH/SS option which is not pretty. Having a 2+ armor save, 3+ invulnerable save, Thunderhammers, and can then sweeping advance would be a truly disgusting thing. So that's not the point of the discussion, whether or not terminator honors are included is.

Last thing to touch on, I'm not bing an a-hole, I'm offering a counter-point in a discussion. Keep in mind, Black templars are the only Codex that talk about terminator honors, so without an FAQ to point it out for everyone out there there is going to be ambiguity on which interpretation of the vague wording is correct.

I wasn't responding to you personally. Sorry if it came off that way. It was a general "BT don't need 3 attack terminators. No Templars players I've ever seen have a problem with this."

Thought this was cleared up in a chapter approved back in 4th. not sure though.

I love how this book has been out for like 5+ years and all of a sudden now that Terminators can take 3+ save storm shields the questions about how many attacks the terminators can get come rolling in...

If you read the entry under Terminator armor in the BT codex it says "Terminators may not sweeping advance" Also that "The wearer automatically has Terminators honours at no extra points".
Firstly, these rules wouldn't apply unless you were wearing terminator armour. Secondly, no model has their armour type listed in the codex except the emperors champion.
Power armor isn't even listed in the wargear section. So what armor is giving the rest of the marines their 3+?
It is fairly straightforward to extrapolate that the terminator honours are included if you take a look at the standard initiate's profile. Adding term armour gives them the 2+, one more attack, and the boost to 9 LD.
I can understand that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, but I just would not play against you if you tried to argue that your terminators that you paid for in your army list were not wearing terminator armor. What models would you use for that? Cadian Guard with thunder hammers? Where does it list them as human in their wargear section? How is that WYSIWYG?

If you look at regular Sword Brethren on the next page, they have only 1A. The bonus is already included.

Homer

Even if they didn't have terminator honors added in, they still don't have the option to take it.

In the profile, just like a lot of character's extra attack items.