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Returning to Empire after along time plus the last year I have not played at all which means I have no experience with 8th Ed.

What has been the general experience you have seen from facing or playing the Empire army as it is now.

Looking for a few short tips on what units seem to preform well now along with any tactics that seem to be getting good results.

Have a ton of models on hand now just looking for guidance on where to start, all the things I have will get painted up soon enough but I really would like to get back on the board with something semi effective so I can start learning all over again.

Thanks in advance for sharing.

Welcome to 8th edition.
First thing to keep in mind is that counting rank bonuses, disrupting flanks, and stead fast, is all done after all attacks.
So the idea of taking 20 infantry and thinking you'll have 3 ranks is false. You'll want some extra bodies in all units to be able to accomplish the task at hand.
The 2nd thing to keep in mind is step up, and supporting attacks. Usually, the most effective formation is going to be either narrow to maximize your own ranks for steadfast, or wider than your opponent, to maximize your attacks.
The 3rd point is a BSB is pretty much a must have.
With these 3 points of 8th edition, here's what seems to work great.
Flagellants, 10 to 14 wide, full unit of 30. Dishes out a huge amount of damage, and doesn't break.
Knights with great weapons. Unit of 13+ for flanking (you need 10 to strip ranks), go 5 wide so you can take 3 losses at still disrupt.
Mortars: no partials = lots of pain
Halberds for chop, swordsmen for holding.
I like sticking a cheap general of the empire in the back. Not only does it keep your general alive, but it also lets you take a magic banner in a core unit. (flaming banner in 20 strong hand gunners is awesome for watch tower)

For mission considerations:
You'll want at least 5 or 6 standards for the raise the flags high mission, and you'll want a block of 20 infantry for the watch tower mission.

Less seen, but still good.
Pair(or triple) fire wizards, (level 2's) loading up on arcane items that give additional power dice. You can do a lot of damage when you roll poorly for winds of magic.

-Matt

Good info I have read through the rules except for the missions now and reread the Empire Book + FAQ seems I need to get to the missions also.

Are detachments used much at all? Considering this for a large block of Halberds just an idea so far though.

Welcome back to the Empire mate. I've been playing them for a year and a half now so hopefully I can help you out as you begin to start playing so heres my quick run-down on the empire units and some of the strengths and weaknesses, so if you want to know more just go ahead and ask. Hope this helps you out mate.

+For your Lords, (not including special characters), you have an Arch Lector, General, Templar Grand Master, and a Wizard Lord, each which can bring something to the table.

The Arch Lector is a really good choice to go with since you can equip him with a lot of stuff to make him just done right nasty, especially when placed upon a War-Altar, which gives him a free 4+ ward save, Magic Resistance 2, and the ability to cast one free lore of light spell all for 100 points, or you can put him with either knights and infantry to beef up there CC potential and with hatred, can allow him and the unit to reroll all of there CC attacks in the first round. He also gives you 2 free dispel dice, which can be huge depending on the situation.

The Grand Master is your best CC guy you can field, and you can give him a combo that can be extremely effective, however you have to run a unit of knights with him in order to use him, so its up to you if you want to but if you do, putting him with a unit of Inner Circle knights is probably the way to go to further increase there CC potential.

The biggest advantage that an Empire Wizard Lord has over many others is that we can chose ANY lore of magic and not be limited due to our armies background (aka Bretonnia, Dark Elves, etc.). Plus, he is also fairly cheap compared to other armies wizard lords, and he can take some really nifty items, 2 which I believe are must are the Rod of Power and the Armor of Tarnus, however its up to you if you want to use them but thats jut my 2 cents, and also can ride a pegasus to move him about the battlefield and blast spells on your opponent, but also to get ut of danger.

Finally, the last and probably the most ignored which is a shame in my opinion, is the Empire General. Though he isnt a CC machine or isnt anything special, he is cheap in points, and probably 2 really good things about him is the Leadership bubble for your troops and for his ancient heirloom special rule, which allows you to give one of your state troop regiments a free banner up to 50 points, and from personal experience my general has yet to let me down so I disagree with all those who say he isn't worth the points. Plus, he has the option to ride a Gryphon, which isnt the best monster choice but if your really want a flying monster that causes terror and just has some really cool fluff, look no further.

+As for our hero's, we have the good old Warrior Priest, Battle Wizard, Engineer, and the important Captain.

Now the Warrior Priest is a really good hero choice for what he brings to the table. He is a good fighter in CC especially with the right combo, and since he is a priest, gives you 1 free dispel dice to use in the magic phase, as well as a number of prayers that can either be used on himself, other characters or using them in CC. However, the best thing he brings to you is hatred, which is a huge boost for our troops in CC. And I can easily say from experience since I run one in a horde of 48x Halberds, who also have the Razor Standard, meaning I will have 30x S4 attacks at a -2 to armor that can be rerolled in the first round, which has saved me more times then I could count.

The reason I say the Captain is important is the fact that he can be upgraded as a BSB, which is a must for an Empire army for the Leadership and rerolling panic and psychological tests for our state troops, which is vital for an Empire army's success. So be sure to protect him with items to boost up his defense, but if you want you can take some magic banners that can hep out your troops quite a bit but thats up to.

The Battle Wizard has the same one big advantage just like the Wizard Lord in being able to chose any Lore of Magic, except that he can only be a level 2 and is cheaper in points, so he is a good choice in smaller point games. In this case, the best item to give him would be the Rod of Power, which can give you some extra dice which can be a big help in smaller games.

Now the Engineer is a hero choice that didnt get much love in the last edition, but in this one he can be a huge boost to your war-machines, hence why I run 2x in 2,500 point games. However, be careful not to put too many points on him if you want to upgrade him, but usually I just run mine as he comes since its just a waste of points to give him anything and because he will be in the rear with the war-machines, and hopefully wont be in CC.

+ Now on to our core choices, which are many in far between. Now the strength of our core units isnt there ability in CC nor there special rules, our strength is in our numbers and the ability to field a lot of cheap infantry, and in this edition with a lot of horde units running around, this is a huge benefit for Empire armies, plus we are one of the few armies able to field knights as a core choice.

Now for our standard CC State Troops, we have the option to field either Swordsmen, Halberds, Spearmen, and Free Company who are all really cheap point wise and can be fielded in large numbers. Swordsmen are still the most popular due to there I4 and WS4, but they now also boost a 6+ parry save thanks to there shields, making them a bit more effective and these guys are probably the best unit to run as a detachment due to there higher survivability. Halberds were never used that much last edition due to there inability to survive, but they probably benefited the most in this edition, which allows them to get an extra rank of S4 attacks in for some more killing power, but I believe this unit is the best run in a Horde, which allows you to get a high number of S4 attacks while remaining one of the cheapest horde units that are out there, hence why these guys are my new favorite State Troops to use and are really effective as detachments. Free Company are good for the reason that the field 2x hw each, which allows them to dish out a lot of attacks which can be effective especially if teamed with a Warrior Priest, but the also make decent detachments for parent units. Spearmen come in last since they dont offer anything special except an extra rank, but they do have a high number of attacks, which can be good if your going against another horde army such s skaven and goblins, but should never be used as detachments, only as a parent unit since the other choices fit the detachment role a lot better. Now the standard parent unit size to run these guys is units of 30x minimum since like I said above, our strength is in numbers, and I run every unit this size in ranks of 5x6, which for the most part allows me to be steadfast for at least an extra turn or 2 while I wait for some support from another unit or detachment. From there if you want, you can field a horde unit, which can be awesome for the reasons above, and the Empire is one of the few armies that can run multiple hordes due to our cheap infantry.

For our missile units, we have the option to run either Crossbows or Handgunners. Handgunners are good obviously due to them being S4 and -2 to armor, however the extra range of the crossbow is huge, allowing you to shoot for an extra turn compared to the handgunners. Now this is my two cents, but I believe that crossbows should be run in large units and never as a detachment to make them more effective, while handgunners make really good detachments to soften up the enemy as the come towards you. Though I personally dont field missile detachments, hopefully this answears your question mate.

Now our knights dont seem like much at first glance due to there average WS, S, I, etc., but they come in with a 1+ save which is a huge, and are fairly cheap to boot and you get all of that in a Core unit. Though calvary arent as effective in this edition due to the new rules, the can still pack quite a punch and can be an effective support unit that could swing a combat in your favor. Plus if you wanted, you could field a horde unit of 15x with a Warrior Priest or Arch Lector to give them hatred and some extra hitting power. And for an extra 3 points, you can make them Inner Circle, which makes them a special choice but if they are armed with lances, it will give them S6 on the charge or if they are armed with hammers which gives them S6 every combat, makes them much more devestating.

+Now as for our special choices, they have two units that are seen in pretty much every empire army, along with some other choices. Obviously the two I mentioned are the cannon and mortar since one of the biggest strengths of the Empire army is our war-machines.

The cannon is good at taking out chairiots, creatures such as a treeman, as well as other war machines such as the trebuchet and the screaming bell. It can also be good at sniping characters if you get a good shot off, and it never hurts to have a engineer near by for it to benefit from the engineers reroll ability.

The mortar is the other war machine we can take in this section, and this is my favorite for many reasons. Even though its only S3, it uses the big template when it fires, meaning that it is nasty against big units thanks to there being no more partials under the template, it can be fired in-accurately, meaning it you can place it behind your infantry to protect it from shooting, and with an engineer, it makes the already accurate war-machine even more, pretty much allowing you to hit on every turn you fire it and you get this all for 75 points!

Great Swords are our elite infantry, which isnt saying to much compared to other armies elite choices, however they do have there strengths. for only 10 points per model, they come with full plate armor, giving them a good 4+ save, field GW's which gives them a good S5 in CC, and finally they are a stubborn leadership 8, meaning if your BSB is nearby these guys become an effective tar-pit unit. And if you run them with a Warrior Priest, the hatred rule will make them as they make all empire infantry, a lot more effective in CC.

Now I cant say much about the Pistoliers and the Outriders since I have never fielded them, but from what I've seen pistoliers can be a good screening unit for knights and make decent war-machine hunters, while outriders can be a really good shooting unit but they have to remain stationary in order for them to fire, which hurts them in some cases.

+Finally, we get to the rare choices of the army and again, we see more of the Empire Warmachines come to play, as well as one of the nastiest units that many oppents hate to see across from them.

To start off we have those crazy religious zealots know as flagellents, who are also a really effective tar-pit unit due to them being unbreakable. Though the boost some pretty niffty rules and such, your paying 10 points a model for a WS2 guy with no armor so they will die in droves in CC, so I never really saw the point of using them since they seem too expensive for my taste for what they do but thats just my opinion.

The Hellblaster was a war-machine that used to make opponents sweat when they just heard of it and dreaded on how much damage it will cause, but sadly those days are long gone. Though the potential of firing 30x S5 shots that are -3 to armor in one turn is awesome, it immedietly goes south when you realize you have to roll to hit with all the shots it puts out (which doesnt make since so nice SNAFU Games Workshop ), and with BS3 that means pretty much half of the shots are wasted, and with only a 24 inch range, means it only usually gets 2 rounds of shooting at the most. Though it can still be effective, it is a hit and miss war-machine and I've had decent success with it but the choice is up to you.

The Hellstorm Rocket Battery defenity can live up to its name since it has the potential to make any opponent have a bad day . Though hit and miss like the Hellblaster since it isn't as accurate as the mortar, it is also a indirect fire weapon that uses the large blast template, but unlike the mortar, this time its a S5 -3 to armor blast template and with no more partial hits, it pretty much means that anything underneath that is going to die, and if you decide to bring 2x to these in one game, your oppenents bad day is just going to be a lot worse so I'd advise to field at least one.

Finally, we get to the Steamtank. Though it comes in at a 300 points, its still an effective cannon on wheels that can also be really nasty in CC, and though it might be easier to kill this edition, with a toughness of 10, it is still a formidable war-machine so if you want a mobile gun platform then this is just the thing for you.

Empire can do big old blocks of infantry, and that is a good thing in 8th Edition!

My advice would be to read through the 8th Edition rulebook to ring those changes. Seriously, VPs are only awarded for eradicating enemy units. Dead or Fled it's often called. If at the end of the game the unit has even a single man on the board, and regardless of whether they are broken or not, your opponent gets *no* VPs for that. Use this to your advantage!

Also, note that the College of Magic is selected at the same time as your wizard, so Empire have lost the 'wait, see, pick the ideal lore' trick from previous editions.

Let me plug the greatswords. Toss in a meteoric iron priest to give them hatred and they will do some grievous damage in round one of any combat. I run mine in a 23-pack (24 with priest) 6 wide and they've never let me down. Well, except for that one time, but I don't talk about that.

Stubborn is golden. Arguably, greatswords are a bit overcosted, but not too bad.

Greatswords do seem to be a point or 2 more then they are really worth, but they have always made up there points for me when I've used them. I used to run them in a unit of 23x w/a Warrior Priest and my General, but lately I've decided to run them in a horde of 40x Greatswords. Thats means I will have 31x S5 attacks with rerolls to hit in the first round of combat, which is just plain awesome!! And though its expensive, it is a nasty unit that many players underestimate and if you throw in some spells on this unit to make them all that more effective.

GK, let me know how that goes for you. I have often been tempted to run a metric asston of greatswords like that, but I always chickened out at the thought of how many points would be ruined by a single lucky treb shot or double-failed steadfast 8. If you have some success, I might be convinced.

Don't write off the flagellants either. They get the re-rolls to hit (martyr), and possibly re-rolls to wound.
300 points for 40 S5 attacks, does a stupid amount of damage. Even against WS5 or more, you're still hitting with more than half your attacks, thanks to the re-rolls.
Also, being unbreakable, they can cover a flank away from the BSB. It's not uncommon for the flagellants to rack up 20+ kills in the first round of combat.

Where great swords are nice up the middle, Flagellants are great on the outside.

Another ignored hammer is huge units of knights with great weapons. Led by a warrior priest, you can roll in with 30 S5 attacks, and still have the 2+ armor. Striking last isn't great, but the 2+ save does shave off a lot of that damage. Also, being cav, they don't get stomped, or thunder stomped on; and cannons have reduced effect.

-Matt

Empire do two things really well - big blocks of cheap infantry and loads of war machines. As such, the core of most successful Empire armies is to hammer the enemy from a distance with mortars and cannon and then grind them down with your massed infantry once they reach your lines.

Empire have a range of options for hammer units, and while their options are nowhere near as lethal as those available to other armies, they're still solid enough. As mentioned by other posters, the most common ones these days are greatswords, flagellants and knights with great weapons. They all perform their role very well - when taking on an inferior unit they'll grind through it very quickly, route it and leave your hammer unit in a position to support another combat involving one of your big blocks of mediocre infantry.

The trick with using any of those hammers is avoid taking on another hammer unit in an even fight (who will simply kill them faster), or against a big load of enemy crap troops (who they will be unable to kill quickly enough). Fortunately, unfair fights is something the Empire does very well, mostly by shooting up key enemy units with big guns.

Which, basically, is my general strategy. Pick a particularly vulnerable enemy unit (either because it has a low model count or a vulnerability to massed fire) and place my hammer unit (typically flagellants or knights with great weapons in front of it. Pound the hell out of it with ranged weapons while the enemy advances. Absorb the enemy charge. Watch as my hammer unit quickly overwhelms the crippled target unit. Turn my hammer unit to support my other anvil units. Doesn't always work, of course, and as often as not I have to make considerable changes because of weird events or my opponent's cleverness, but wouldn't it the game be dull if that wasn't the case?

Well Malleus, so far I've played ten battles with the Greatsword horde and it has done awesome. Many opponents tend to focus there magic and firepower on it due to the threat it presents, but it usually allows my halberd horde to to remain unscratched, which is a bonus (I run 50x Halberds in a horde along with the Greatsword horde, so it looks really intimidating!). The closet I have had them being wiped out was when they went up against a 40x horde Chaos Warrior block and after 4 rounds of slugging it out, I emereged with only 4x Greatswords, my WP and my General, but the were surrounded by the bodies of the defeated chaos warriors! Besides that, they have done great and have yet to let me down.

sebster wrote:Empire do two things really well - big blocks of cheap infantry and loads of war machines. As such, the core of most successful Empire armies is to hammer the enemy from a distance with mortars and cannon and then grind them down with your massed infantry once they reach your lines.

Empire have a range of options for hammer units, and while their options are nowhere near as lethal as those available to other armies, they're still solid enough. As mentioned by other posters, the most common ones these days are greatswords, flagellants and knights with great weapons. They all perform their role very well - when taking on an inferior unit they'll grind through it very quickly, route it and leave your hammer unit in a position to support another combat involving one of your big blocks of mediocre infantry.

The trick with using any of those hammers is avoid taking on another hammer unit in an even fight (who will simply kill them faster), or against a big load of enemy crap troops (who they will be unable to kill quickly enough). Fortunately, unfair fights is something the Empire does very well, mostly by shooting up key enemy units with big guns.

Which, basically, is my general strategy. Pick a particularly vulnerable enemy unit (either because it has a low model count or a vulnerability to massed fire) and place my hammer unit (typically flagellants or knights with great weapons in front of it. Pound the hell out of it with ranged weapons while the enemy advances. Absorb the enemy charge. Watch as my hammer unit quickly overwhelms the crippled target unit. Turn my hammer unit to support my other anvil units. Doesn't always work, of course, and as often as not I have to make considerable changes because of weird events or my opponent's cleverness, but wouldn't it the game be dull if that wasn't the case?

This is it, and exactly my style of play...with the empire you cannot just charge headstrong into the enemy, but rather pick your fights, as explained above...

One thing to mention is that the empire also can play a very active role in the magic phase. I prefer a defensive and supportive magic phase and doing this by having extra dispel dice through the arch lector and warrior priest, coupled with a level 2 (with the staff of sorcery) or a level 3 mage. Having said that, with the war altar you have access to the lore of light which can be easily cast, and thus with that, the priest prayers,and the level 2 or 3 wizard with the (pick your favorite lore) spells, you can also do very well..although conventional empire wisdom is that blackpowder, steel, and flesh is always more reliable!!!

GK wrote:Well Malleus, so far I've played ten battles with the Greatsword horde and it has done awesome. Many opponents tend to focus there magic and firepower on it due to the threat it presents, but it usually allows my halberd horde to to remain unscratched, which is a bonus (I run 50x Halberds in a horde along with the Greatsword horde, so it looks really intimidating!). The closet I have had them being wiped out was when they went up against a 40x horde Chaos Warrior block and after 4 rounds of slugging it out, I emereged with only 4x Greatswords, my WP and my General, but the were surrounded by the bodies of the defeated chaos warriors! Besides that, they have done great and have yet to let me down.

Add me to the greatsword horde + priest crowd. I run 40 of them and they generally grind everything in front of them (suitably softened by warmachines and shooters first, of course). I also put them a handgunner detachment for a last stand and shoot reaction.

Sadly I don't have the models to play flagellants, but I've been on the receiving end (w/greeenskins) and they smashed through big'uns and black orcs with ease. They're very vulnerable to shooting, though.

Pistoliers are also very vulnerable to shooting but being fast cavalry they can usually get behind enemy lines to hunt warmachines and/or pound the enemy from behind with repeater shots. I run 8-10 of them, as they're too easy to rout with shooting in units of 5. For the same effect a captain on pegasus also makes a good warmachine hunter.

My choice for infantry block is either swordsmen (for that extra I and WS) or halberds. This means swordsmen against lizards, skaven, HE, etc. and halberds against WoC, greenskins, etc.

As per warmachines I field one of each of cannon, rocket and mortar. I might trade the cannon for an extra mortar against lizards or skaven. I also play an engineer between two of the warmachines for the problem dice reroll and, if things go just fine, he can shoot with long rifle or pigeon bombs (quite cheap but also not very dependable but I like them, must be the greenskin general in me).

I don't play knights (too expensive for what you get, IMHO) or steam tank (don't have the model, and opponents generally complain about steam tanks being OP, so I don't think I'll be buying it).

Cheapo heroes is one of the strengths of empire mages, priests, engineers, are all fine. The griffon general though is too fragile, put them on foot (or on horse) and save the points for more infantry and warmachines (or heroes, for that matter).

I agree. Our knights are too expensive for what you get from them, however it is still pretty cool that we can field a 1+ save knight as a core choice unlike most armies. the only way I might ever run knights is running a unit of Inner Circle Knights, either in a unit of 9x in a 5x2 formation or 11x in a 6x2, lead by a Arch-Lector or a Warrior Priest for hatred, and I usually go for lances over GW since I've lost count on how many times that 1+ save has come in handy, plus as the problem with all calvary, usually if you dont break them on the charge, your in trouble no matter what.

GK wrote:I agree. Our knights are too expensive for what you get from them, however it is still pretty cool that we can field a 1+ save knight as a core choice unlike most armies. the only way I might ever run knights is running a unit of Inner Circle Knights, either in a unit of 9x in a 5x2 formation or 11x in a 6x2, lead by a Arch-Lector or a Warrior Priest for hatred, and I usually go for lances over GW since I've lost count on how many times that 1+ save has come in handy, plus as the problem with all calvary, usually if you dont break them on the charge, your in trouble no matter what.

Small units of knights with lances are in trouble if you don't break him on the charge.
On the other hand, large units with great weapons do just fine taking charges.
Knights fight like great swords, only with a 2+ save, and the mounts attack. I really don't know why people love huge units of greatswords and hate on the knights.
Yeah, greatswords are stubborn, but so is any character with a 35 point item; and knight hordes just don't lose combat all that often.

-Matt

The reason people (including myself) love huge units of Greatswords is becasue they are cheaper point wise and they are stubborn for free, which is a huge bonus for Empire armies. Also like a lot of people have said, the strength of the Empire is its infantry and war-machines, while knights are more of a supportive role in the Empire army.

What's the point differential between gold swords and knights? A really knight heavy Empire army might be cool to see, though at some point you should probably just play Bretonians then

greatsword: 10 points, full command is 30

A knight is 23 points, full command is 40, +3 PPM to make them inner circle (a special choice and s4)

GK wrote:The reason people (including myself) love huge units of Greatswords is becasue they are cheaper point wise and they are stubborn for free, which is a huge bonus for Empire armies. Also like a lot of people have said, the strength of the Empire is its infantry and war-machines, while knights are more of a supportive role in the Empire army.

The strength of any army is what you make of it. Empire is a diverse army that can be competitive with a lot of different builds. Saying that their strength is infantry and warmachines is being narrow minded. Empire infantry are on par with O&G or beastmen, and worse than Skaven.
Empire knights have no equals, they are 1 of 2 knight units in the game that does well taking a charge, and are pretty much the only knights that can fight a prolonged fight.
At 23 points, they are a steal.

Put 30 on the table with a warrior priest, and roll up the flank. Here's what you'll see happen.
Either the unit you charge, and the unit you redirect into will flee; or the unit that you do hit will break.
If they flee, you are set up to take a charge, which these guys can do.
If they hold and you break them, you can either pursue, or just reform, to line up on another unit(s).
Supported with mortars, knight hordes can be incredible offensive tools.
A 14"+ march, gives these guys enough speed to be a real problem. If you push forward toward my warmachines, you're putting knights on you flank.

From the 3 games I've had with these, I found the knights were good for eating 2 units a turn; and the speculum packing warrior priest prevents any lone hero/monster from carving through the unit.

I'll post the army in another thread.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Small units of knights with lances are in trouble if you don't break him on the charge.
On the other hand, large units with great weapons do just fine taking charges.
Knights fight like great swords, only with a 2+ save, and the mounts attack. I really don't know why people love huge units of greatswords and hate on the knights.
Yeah, greatswords are stubborn, but so is any character with a 35 point item; and knight hordes just don't lose combat all that often.

-Matt

Definitely. The knights are also Mv 8, which means they're much more likely to be in place on time to help another unit out.

The Empire has three hammer units, greatswords, flagellants, and knights. None are among the best in the game, but they are all capable of playing a decisive role in an Empire army, if used in conjunction with the other army's strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:The strength of any army is what you make of it. Empire is a diverse army that can be competitive with a lot of different builds. Saying that their strength is infantry and warmachines is being narrow minded. Empire infantry are on par with O&G or beastmen, and worse than Skaven.

Sure, but a unit doesn't have to be as effective as the most effective of it's type to be a strength. That skaven infantry are even better speaks volumes about the quality to cost of skaven infantry.

Thing is, Empire infantry are dependable troops with middle of the road stats of good equipment options, for 5 or 6 points a piece. It's a definite strength to be able to take large blocks of troops for a fairly small investment. This alone doesn't make Empire a great army, but when you add in the very affordable war machines you can see the Empire's strength. The hammer units don't really measure up in the same way, because they can only really function in their role when the other units do their jobs.

sebster wrote:
Thing is, Empire infantry are dependable troops with middle of the road stats of good equipment options, for 5 or 6 points a piece. It's a definite strength to be able to take large blocks of troops for a fairly small investment. This alone doesn't make Empire a great army, but when you add in the very affordable war machines you can see the Empire's strength. The hammer units don't really measure up in the same way, because they can only really function in their role when the other units do their jobs.

Not to mention the detachments rule and cheap characters that boost the infantry-ness of the Empire.

That's not to say knights don't work, I just found that for me, they're not worth the cost. If I had the models I might try the 30-model knight horde.

I might even do it if I dig my old kislevite winged lancers out from wherever they are now.

All right guys thanks for all the input think i am sorted for now. Got a ton of painting to get done before I take to the board for the first time.

Not sure on the whole list so far, know that a hoard of Halberds 40+, Mortar, cannon, wizard, and captain BSB are underway right now.

While I am painting going to continue to read and work on the list.

Are ranks now 8? I know the special attack rule is 10 in a rank, but I can't remember if ranks are now 6 or 8. If 6 then I recommend units of 30 strong, so you get plenty of ranks with the ability to switch to 10x3. If 8 then 40 as it keeps depth and blocks of units are excellent for attrition and numbers for strength, again with the ability to fold out into a 10x4 unit. If my strategy sounds all wrong then I ask the WAY more experienced posters to shoot them down in flames.

As a further question to the veterans on this thread, are detachments any use these days, I can understand shooting being useful still, but not necessarily free company?

@Coffee Ork - I see Pistoliers as still useful, Pistoliers have 2, (YES 2!) pistols, and their maneuverability is really useful for what I call "General-Botherers", taking out flank cav, weak flank units or attacking warmachines. My unit bought down a Giant once, once, they ran away in terror the next time

That's my 2p, hope it helps even marginally

Well, my personal experience has been not so bright. I mainly play against Skaven and DE, both of which can make you work very very hard for even a draw. I will also admit that a few stupid decisions, a horrible streak of bad luck and quite a few times random magical terrain providing my opponents with huge boni all played their part in this.

State Troops are still quite frail and rarely kill much, not even in a horde with a WP. More than likely that WP will be dead before he can confer his hatred or Ld. DE can outfight them easily even if I too have hatred and Skaven will outnumber and outrank me while going first, moving faster and often having better Ld.

Contrary to many other players, I have had very good success with knights, both lance- and hammer-armed ones. I tend to field 1-2 units of at least 9 + character. Even if they do not break a steadfast unit - and it is quite possible to break steadfast units! - they add valuable kills and don't go down easily, often holding up key units. Add a TGM with Shroud of Magnus and you have a decent fighter and some insurance against metal spells if you like.

Magic is pretty good. Almost every Lore is good. There are some that are situational like death, which is short-ranged and of little use against high Ld armies or Shadow's high complexities but those downsides are marginal. With additional DD and the Rod of Power to store dice it is relatively easy to compete with the best out there. Our magic items are still very decent and we can get good armour saves for relatively few points and our warmachines can help with hordes and big gribblies alike (although mine tend to explode or to bounce badly even with an Engineer).

Pistoliers have suffered badly. They can hardly marchblock, are too expensive for diverting and won't kill anything. Hitting on 6's at long range is pitiful.

Ranks are 5, as before.

Even with 30 knights, going 5 wide against some enemies still wont mean you break steadfast, so you are nto g'teed to break them. While you take their rank bonus, they keep their ranks!

Engineers, as said before, are golden - take them with a hochland so if they dont need the war machien reroll they can still have a pot shot at pesky champions / mages / BSB, and you're laughing.

BSB - you get the "shafted BSB" syndrome, in the fact he CANNOT take mundane items other than armour. However, if you dnot want a magic banner then you can give him a ward save or magic armour, such as the charmed shield.

Hence why I take a Empire General in my Army nosferatu1001. Though he isnt a CC machince or anything fancy, his Acient Hierloom rule to allow one of my state troops regiments to get a free 50 point magic banner is huge, allowing me to give my BSB the AOMI for defense. Plus the General's leadership is also a nice boost, and he is fairly cheap for a lords choice compared to other armies.

And though our State Troops are frail, they can still do damage and I've had a lot of success with a WP in a unit of State Troops because it just makes them so much better and actually allows them to cause some damage in CC. And I can say from personally experience that the WP's hatred has made the difference in many games for me, turning a certian defeat into a a bloody vctory. And though they arent the greatest of core choices, they have decent stats and are cheap point-wise, allowing you to field a good number of them while being backed up by our shooting units.

I only have one unit of knights with lances, and I tend to run them as Inner Circle w/an Arch Lector, but even then they still have a hard time breaking units on the charge, and I rarely use them now since I've had a lot more success with running a pure-infantry horde Empire Army. I currently run a horde of 50x Halberds, 2x units of 30x Sowrdsmen w/Halberd detachments, and a unit of either 30x or 40x Greatswords depending on what army I'm facing, backed up by my warmachines and my unit of crossbows, with A General, BSB, 2x Warrior Priests, 2x Engineers, and either a Lvl. 4 Wizard on a pegasus or an Arch Lector on the War Altar to mix things up a bit.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:State Troops are still quite frail and rarely kill much, not even in a horde with a WP. More than likely that WP will be dead before he can confer his hatred or Ld. DE can outfight them easily even if I too have hatred and Skaven will outnumber and outrank me while going first, moving faster and often having better Ld.

State troops will always be fragile, and unable to kill much. That's not really much to do with any ruleset, and everything to do with state troops being designed as modestly capable troops. You will lose a lot of games if you rely on state troops to win in even contests. The trick is to make sure they don't fight in even contests, by hammering the enemy with war machines before he reaches you, and by having your state troops fight losing battles against more powerful and costly enemy units for long enough (relying on steadfast and a nearby BSB to stay in the fight) until a hammer unit arrives to swing the advantage your way.

Magic is pretty good. Almost every Lore is good.

Empire magic is fine, but it's just magic that most other armies have access to, that they can typically wield as well as you, and often better. It's not a weakness for the Empire, but nor is it a strength.

Pistoliers have suffered badly. They can hardly marchblock, are too expensive for diverting and won't kill anything. Hitting on 6's at long range is pitiful.

Pistoliers can march and fire without penatly, you shouldn't ever be firing at long range, not that their damage payout is wonderful anyway. But in general I agree, march blocking has been largely gimped by letting it rely on the BSB, and this has made pistoliers a useful novelty to spend some spare points on, rather than a key asset for holding up the enemy. Unless you have a cunning plan to kill the BSB early in the game (mass of long rifles, suicide character) then pistoliers can be excellent again.

sebster wrote:
State troops will always be fragile, and unable to kill much.

I'm not entirely sure why you are saying that. I didn't attribute it to the rule set. This might be obvious to you but no-one has pointed it out explicitly, yet the question was where we stand. With the often hyped Halberd horde I think it is only prudent to point out their very modest capabilities.

Empire magic is fine, but it's just magic that most other armies have access to, that they can typically wield as well as you, and often better. It's not a weakness for the Empire, but nor is it a strength.

It's not just the lores themselves. It's the ability to generate a sizeable amount of extra DD and to store dice that makes us quite flexible. Prayers have suffered but you can still throw 6 dice at one you need to go off without risking anything. That's useful with the Altar's Light spells.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I'm not entirely sure why you are saying that. I didn't attribute it to the rule set. This might be obvious to you but no-one has pointed it out explicitly, yet the question was where we stand. With the often hyped Halberd horde I think it is only prudent to point out their very modest capabilities.

Sure thing. I think we agree on this.

It's not just the lores themselves. It's the ability to generate a sizeable amount of extra DD and to store dice that makes us quite flexible. Prayers have suffered but you can still throw 6 dice at one you need to go off without risking anything. That's useful with the Altar's Light spells.

Prayers have suffered, but this is balanced by the bonus dispel die from War Priests becoming more useful. Which makes Empire pretty solid for defensive magic. But in terms of offensive, power based magic they've really got no strengths over anyone else.

Prayers have suffered, but this is balanced by the bonus dispel die from War Priests becoming more useful. Which makes Empire pretty solid for defensive magic. But in terms of offensive, power based magic they've really got no strengths over anyone else.

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Agree with you on this mate for the most part. Empire generally does a lot better at defensive magic.