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So, as I have mentioned on other threads, I just picked up the game about 6 months ago, and have not played in any type of competitive setting yet. So, my question is: how does WYSIWYG work with models that GW has not produced (as I play 'nids, I use the Tervigon ot Tyrannifex as examples)? Are you really expected to try a conversion on a 50.00 model? I ask, because I do not trust myself to do conversions yet (and may never trust myself in this matter). I just want to know what would be expected should I get to the point where I would want to try a tourney?

It's set that Tervigon and Tyrannofex are on the Carnifex bases. The issue comes when TWC is thrown into the mix. Are they on bike, 40mm, dread bases, what?

MCs in general are on 60mm round bases (the Carnifex Base) now. The only exception to this is the Trygon. Some older MCs are mounted on 40mms, but the updated version of those MCs are now on 60mm.

The fact that most people mount TWCs on 60mm is because 1.) the only current TWC model produced by GW is Canis, who is supplied with a 60mm and 2.) the closest thing to the TWC is the Bloodcrushers, who are similarly mounted on 60mm, reinforcing that the large base was what was intended.

WYSIWYG is more of a gaming convention than a hard and fast rule. It's a way of making the game easier to play and more aesthetically pleasing for both players.

Units that don't have official models can be a little problematic, but ultimately the aim is to just present a unit that clearly represents what it is supposed to be. Where there is artwork in the codex, that gives a good guideline. Otherwise (cue all the wide variety of different Defiler scratch-builds for 3rd edition), you'll just have to make something up and explain to your opponents before the game what it is supposed to be.

So yes, that can sometimes require expensive conversions.

For freindly games, it's not always that hard... Depending on the sort of group you game with, your opponents might not have too many hang-ups with proxying a Carnifex as a Tervigon, provided there is some way of clearly identifying it amongst any other Carnifexes you are fielding at the same time.

For tournaments, it's a little stickier, since it ultimately comes down to the judgement of the tournament organiser... but it's safest to assume that you should try to make the model as look as much as possible like what it is actually supposed to be.

For the record, 90% of the Tervigons and Tyrannofexes you see are going to be on the large oval bases, not the 60mm ones. They're pictured as being above and beyond the size of creatures such as the Carnifex or the Hive Tyrant, so the general concensus is that they are on large ovals and that putting them on the 60mm is not the way to go.

In fact, even Phil Kelly put his Tervigon on a large oval base.

There is also a funny base conversion where the guy sawed a 60mm in half, then bulked out the center with some square bases (since there isnt a 60mm Square base, I'm assuming he either cut up a Screaming bell Base or used a few smaller 20mm bases to fill in the gaps). The consensus with Tervigon bases is not as clear cut as the TWC ones. There is no official analogue unlike the TWCs, but alot of people model them on the large oval ones. Personally I think it's for modeling purposes (the way the Tervigon is depicted to walk is near-impossible to do on a 60mm, unless it's standing straight up like the Trygon), and I have yet to see anyone actually claim that they modelled it on a large oval base specifically for gaming. Until the Tervigon is released, anything modelled on a 60mm or more shouldnt have a problem.

insaniak wrote:WYSIWYG is more of a gaming convention than a hard and fast rule. It's a way of making the game easier to play and more aesthetically pleasing for both players.

I'm under the impression that most tournaments run WYSIWYG rules, and I wanted to know where I stand if I ever want to start doing tourneys

insaniak wrote:For freindly games, it's not always that hard... Depending on the sort of group you game with, your opponents might not have too many hang-ups with proxying a Carnifex as a Tervigon, provided there is some way of clearly identifying it amongst any other Carnifexes you are fielding at the same time.

My group has no hangups. As I am still buying the models for my force, they have no issue, for example, with letting me proxy warriors for Hive Guard until I get mine; and could care less which weapon is showing on which model as long as the army list is clear on what you are equipped with. Fortunately for ease, I do not run any regular Carnifexes.

insaniak wrote:For tournaments, it's a little stickier, since it ultimately comes down to the judgement of the tournament organiser... but it's safest to assume that you should try to make the model as look as much as possible like what it is actually supposed to be.

That was my assumption, I will just have to talk to the people that run the tourneys around here and see where they stand. I will say as I am no modeling genius, and am working with very limited funds, I will not be performing any conversions for some time; if this keeps me out of any tourneys......so be it.


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What is the TWC you guys are referencing?

I would really find it helpful in general if GW could release a datasheet of sorts for non-existent models stating base size, approximate heights, or in the event of a vehicle, weapon placings. Not saying they must make every single model for codex release, but it would be nice to know if the storm raven or mycetic spore conversion you busted your hump to make would be tournament legal once the actual figure came out.

chowderhead13 wrote:It's set that Tervigon and Tyrannofex are on the Carnifex bases. The issue comes when TWC is thrown into the mix. Are they on bike, 40mm, dread bases, what?

where are you getting that from? the tervigon has the statline most similar to a trygon and nid statlines *generally* correspond to base size, hence the reason the vast majority of tervigons are on trygon bases.

My Tervigon, on large oval base. It is converted from a Carnifex body but it wouldn't by any means fit on a 60mm base, it's far too large.





I've never seen anything that says Tervigons and Tyrannofexes should go on 60mm bases.

The Carnifex barely fits on a 60mm base and it is a four wound model. The Trygon, Tervigon and Tyrannofex are all six wound models, which implies they are larger. (We can see that the Trygon is larger.)

I can't imagine anyone complaining about a nicely modelled Tervigon or Tyrannofex on a large base.

If you are worried about conversions, don't be. The Tervigon can easily be converted from a Carnifex or a Trygon. I would use a Carnifex because they are cheaper, especially when bought secondhand from eBay.

Chapterhouse do a kit to convert a Carnifex to a Tervigon. Alternatively, use putty to make the necessary changes. Tyranids are very forgiving for this kind of conversion, because the organic forms are easily made using putty even with basic modelling skills.

Battlesong wrote:That was my assumption, I will just have to talk to the people that run the tourneys around here and see where they stand.

That's the key, really. There is no single, all-encompassing tournament standard. It's entirely at the discretion of whoever is running the tournament in question.

Wounds is a bad indicator of base sizes. Skulltaker has 2 wounds but is on a 40mm. Epidemius has 3 but is on a 60mm. Abaddon has 4 (same as a fex) but is also on a 40mm. The Great Unclean one has 5 wounds, but is on a 60mm (granted, the model did come out before the base was conceived) and is somewhat smaller than a Fex.

Whether or not the Trygon was put on the large base because of his wounds or because he was just too huge for a normal 60mm (as someone pointed out, the Carnifex barely fits on a 60mm. The Trygon is a good deal bigger than it, so he must have an even bigger base) or because it was a conscious gaming decision is up for debate. If you're unsure, use a Carnifex for now as a proxy. There wont be a clear cut rule until an official model comes out (or at least a reliable analogue can be drawn).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Wounds is a bad indicator of base sizes. Skulltaker has 2 wounds but is on a 40mm. Epidemius has 3 but is on a 60mm. Abaddon has 4 (same as a fex) but is also on a 40mm. The Great Unclean one has 5 wounds, but is on a 60mm (granted, the model did come out before the base was conceived) and is somewhat smaller than a Fex.

Whether or not the Trygon was put on the large base because of his wounds or because he was just too huge for a normal 60mm (as someone pointed out, the Carnifex barely fits on a 60mm. The Trygon is a good deal bigger than it, so he must have an even bigger base) or because it was a conscious gaming decision is up for debate. If you're unsure, use a Carnifex for now as a proxy. There wont be a clear cut rule until an official model comes out (or at least a reliable analogue can be drawn).

was i talking about chaos marines or demons? no, that's why i said *generally* in reference to nids. characters and "leader" types (in the case of nid specials) will have more wounds for their size but the general rule stands. 1w creatures like gaunts/gants are on standard 25mm bases, 2-3 wound creatures are on 40mm like broodlords and warriors, 4-5w generally goes on 60mm (tyrants, carnifex), and 6 wound creatures are on the large elipse bases (trygon, mawloc).

From a model point of view, only two models have been released on the large oval base, the Trygon and Mawloc (not counting FW models, as those are subject to their own system and most of the time have either custom bases or no bases at all). Only 3 Tyranid MC sets (technically 4 MCs, but 2 of them share one set) have been released, and only one of which is on a large oval base. Aside from the wounds profile, there's no indicator that the Trygon would be the same size as a Tervigon or a Tyrannofex.

Also, I would consider the Harpy to be on a large oval base, since it's explicitly stated to be similar to the trygon. However it only possesses 4 wounds. The Parasite of Motrex and Doom of Matai'tai also fits the bill. The Parasite (at least to me) seems to be a flying Warrior Variant, and the Doom is clearly a Zoanthrope. I can draw a similar parallel from Carnifexes to Tyrannofexes as well, which can be used in the argument for Tyrannofexes on 60mm. There is no parallel that can be drawn with a Tervigon.

EDIT: looking at the Pyrovores, they seem to defy the system even more, having only 2 wounds but are mounted on a 60mm base.

I had to ask as I have an extensive background in Magic, and the tourney rules for that game are very uniform. I didn't know that 40k tourney rules were left more to the organizers. I hope the people around here are lenient as I am not buying 2 45 dollar model kits, and then taking x hours of time I really don't have, to make a creature; and then doing it 3 times as I am running either 2 or 3 tervigons, depending on the point level.

GW's notorious for having alot of holes in their cross-checking, meaning there are huge amounts of inconsistencies cropping up everywhere. For them, it's better to let tourney organisers deal with it than having to dedicate a part of their company to sorting out the issues when they could be relocated to somewhere more profitable.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Also, I would consider the Harpy to be on a large oval base, since it's explicitly stated to be similar to the trygon. However it only possesses 4 wounds. The Parasite of Motrex and Doom of Matai'tai also fits the bill. The Parasite (at least to me) seems to be a flying Warrior Variant, and the Doom is clearly a Zoanthrope.

lol, i say that the rule doesn't apply to special characters and half your examples are special characters. lets recap my observations and then take a looksie at the army list of the non-specials figs that have a current official model...

warboss wrote:no, that's why i said *generally* in reference to nids. characters and "leader" types (in the case of nid specials) will have more wounds for their size but the general rule stands. 1w creatures like gaunts/gants are on standard 25mm bases, 2-3 wound creatures are on 40mm like broodlords and warriors, 4-5w generally goes on 60mm (tyrants, carnifex), and 6 wound creatures are on the large elipse bases (trygon, mawloc).

HQ: 2/2 (tyrant, tyrant guard)

Elite: 6/7 (all except the pyrovore)

Troops: 5/5 (rippers, horms, terms, genestealers, warriors)

Fast: 3/3 (rav, spore, gargoyle... arguably also the shrikes but they don't have an *official* model since the sprue doesn't come with wings so i won't count them)

Heavy: 4/4 (carni, biovore, trygon, mawloc)

so... 20/21 certainly does seem like the rule applies to general units currently in production when not including specials. there most definitely IS a pattern of base size in the nid army based on wounds.

And lets not forget the THIRD model that was put on the oval base....

THE VALKYRIE (and Vendetta)!

Are your nids as big as a space ship?

warboss wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Also, I would consider the Harpy to be on a large oval base, since it's explicitly stated to be similar to the trygon. However it only possesses 4 wounds. The Parasite of Motrex and Doom of Matai'tai also fits the bill. The Parasite (at least to me) seems to be a flying Warrior Variant, and the Doom is clearly a Zoanthrope.

lol, i say that the rule doesn't apply to special characters and half your examples are special characters. lets recap my observations and then take a looksie at the army list of the non-specials figs that have a current official model...

warboss wrote:no, that's why i said *generally* in reference to nids. characters and "leader" types (in the case of nid specials) will have more wounds for their size but the general rule stands. 1w creatures like gaunts/gants are on standard 25mm bases, 2-3 wound creatures are on 40mm like broodlords and warriors, 4-5w generally goes on 60mm (tyrants, carnifex), and 6 wound creatures are on the large elipse bases (trygon, mawloc).

HQ: 2/2 (tyrant, tyrant guard)

Elite: 6/7 (all except the pyrovore)

Troops: 5/5 (rippers, horms, terms, genestealers, warriors)

Fast: 3/3 (rav, spore, gargoyle... arguably also the shrikes but they don't have an *official* model since the sprue doesn't come with wings so i won't count them)

Heavy: 4/4 (carni, biovore, trygon, mawloc)

so... 20/21 certainly does seem like the rule applies to general units currently in production when not including specials. there most definitely IS a pattern of base size in the nid army based on wounds.

Seriously how does Special Characters affect what size bases they should be on? By and by they still have to conform to the same rules as everyone else. Currently the Trygon and it's variant (Mawloc included) are the only MCs on the large Oval Base. However the Pyrovore stands as an example of how bases are designed with form, not statline, in mind. Also, check the rulebook for the depiction of a Biovore. It's also mounted on a 60mm.

Across the whole game, the Trygon and variants are the only MCs mounted on the large oval base, all because they share one kit. No other MC has that base, regardless of wounds.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Seriously how does Special Characters affect what size bases they should be on? By and by they still have to conform to the same rules as everyone else. Currently the Trygon and it's variant (Mawloc included) are the only MCs on the large Oval Base. However the Pyrovore stands as an example of how bases are designed with form, not statline, in mind. Also, check the rulebook for the depiction of a Biovore. It's also mounted on a 60mm.

characters and special units have always been exceptions to rules... that's what makes them special. a general rule is that marines in power armor go on 25mm bases and have 1 wound... characters (special or not) frequently have more and don't follow that guideline... it's true in every army. either way, over 20 of 21 of generic units with models follow the guidelines i mentioned. if you're making up a counts as model for something that doesn't exist and is generic (like the tervigon mentioned by the OP and the point of the thread), i'd say you'd be safest following the informal rules that are applicable over 95% of the time so far.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Across the whole game, the Trygon and variants are the only MCs mounted on the large oval base, all because they share one kit. No other MC has that base, regardless of wounds.

that statement is only true if GW had come out with a monstrous creature with 6 wounds that wasn't on the base, otherwise its not "regardless of wounds". the base has only been around for about a year and a half... how many more 5-6 wound creatures did you expect to come out in that time? GW is not going to retroactively say that previously released large bulky models now need to go onto it... they'll only use it on upcoming new sculpts and such large monstrous creatures are few and far between.

either way, i'm done with the thread as i think i've demonstrated to the OP was GW has been doing with the nids. if OVER 95% of units following these guidelines doesn't convince you that there is indeed a trend present, i don't know what will, lol.

Techmarines in the BT army has 2 wounds but on a 25mm, or are you going to retoactively coin them as "characters" because they doesnt conform to the rules? Also, going by that logic, then Harpys are on 60mm, and Mycetic Spores would also have to go on 40mms.

Quite frankly, for you to make your argument that it's a guideline for the army's base sizes, then everything has to conform to it without problems. With one (and possibly two) models failing that, as well as clearly messing up two more, it will have proven the guideline wrong. I had a similar argument about close combat weapons, however I conceded when presented with two clear contradictions. The only trend that's happening is MCs moving onto 60mm bases (prior to that, Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants and Wraith Lords were all on 40mms). The Trygon was adapted from the Forge World model, who had dimensions much larger than the round base. It's much easier to make a new base than to completely repose that model to conform to the 60mm bases.

warboss wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Seriously how does Special Characters affect what size bases they should be on? By and by they still have to conform to the same rules as everyone else. Currently the Trygon and it's variant (Mawloc included) are the only MCs on the large Oval Base. However the Pyrovore stands as an example of how bases are designed with form, not statline, in mind. Also, check the rulebook for the depiction of a Biovore. It's also mounted on a 60mm.

characters and special units have always been exceptions to rules... that's what makes them special. a general rule is that marines in power armor go on 25mm bases and have 1 wound... characters (special or not) frequently have more and don't follow that guideline... it's true in every army. either way, over 20 of 21 of generic units with models follow the guidelines i mentioned. if you're making up a counts as model for something that doesn't exist and is generic (like the tervigon mentioned by the OP and the point of the thread), i'd say you'd be safest following the informal rules that are applicable over 95% of the time so far.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Across the whole game, the Trygon and variants are the only MCs mounted on the large oval base, all because they share one kit. No other MC has that base, regardless of wounds.

that statement is only true if GW had come out with a monstrous creature with 6 wounds that wasn't on the base, otherwise its not "regardless of wounds". the base has only been around for about a year and a half... how many more 5-6 wound creatures did you expect to come out in that time? GW is not going to retroactively say that previously released large bulky models now need to go onto it... they'll only use it on upcoming new sculpts and such large monstrous creatures are few and far between.

either way, i'm done with the thread as i think i've demonstrated to the OP was GW has been doing with the nids. if OVER 95% of units following these guidelines doesn't convince you that there is indeed a trend present, i don't know what will, lol.

Yadda yadda. Two words: prove it. No opinions, no interpretation, show where it's documented. Oh, GW doesn't want to give 'nids any model support? Then I'm going to use the Carnifex that otherwise would be gathering dust on a shelf. There's absolutely no confusion when you use a Carnifex other than the immediate 'You're using a Carnifex? What's wrong with you?' followed seconds later with 'Oh OK, Tervigon/Tyrannofex/Harpy/Parasite. Yeah that makes sense.' Nobody, anywhere, has ever given me grief about it as long as I explain what the model is during set up. Most especially tournaments because they CAN'T. It's over 50% GW material, it's on the 'officially supplied base size' because there is no official base, he's not modeled for advantage and it's clearly distinct. All those hoops are only necessary in tournaments anyway because actual players couldn't give a toss. Everyone knows the Carnifex is bit character only doing cameos these days.

Personally i thought tervigons/ tyrannofexes were bigger than carnifexes, I'd use a large oval base.
Just my opinion.

Depends on the Tervigon and Tyrannofex classifications really. The Trygon was originally classified as a small Biotitan rather than an MC (and had the Gargantuan Creature rule like other 40k-sized biotitans). Tervigons and Tyrannofexes might just be Monstrous creatures, not exactly on the size of a Biotitan yet.

Happygrunt wrote:And lets not forget the THIRD model that was put on the oval base....

THE VALKYRIE (and Vendetta)!

Are your nids as big as a space ship?

Yes, about. The Trygon is effing huge. It only fits on the large base because it is all curled up. The Tyrannofex would be bigger if a kit existed.

Imagine the Tervigon. It's big enough in fluff to contain dozens of Termagants which pop out fully formed and spoiling for a fight. Plus it has its own six wounds and so on to carry around.

My Tervigon is not as long as a Trygon, but I made it wider, to represent its spawning capacity.

It still isn't remotely large enough to contain all the Termagants it is capable of spawning. I've played games where it spawned 40 Termagants. It's like a bloody Clown Car.

Happygrunt wrote:Are your nids as big as a space ship?

- Last Words of Private Johnson before being stepped on by a Hierophant.

Kilkrazy wrote:it still isn't remotely large enough to contain all the Termagants it is capable of spawning. I've played games where it spawned 40 Termagants. It's like a bloody Clown Car.

The way I see it, you'd probably be looking at something around Hierodule-size if you wanted it to be realistic. Possibly even bigger. Something like a Hierodule but fatter. Which, by the way, for those who are interested, the Hierodule is on a 130mm round base. So if we really want realistically sized Tervigons, we're going to need something along the lines of 150mm round bases. Since that is not practical and GW doesn't even make bases that size, the largest size available (large oval which I believe is 95x120mm) would be your best bet. Going any smaller than that is silly and the model will either look incredibly crowded on such a small base, or will be too small to pass for a Tervigon.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:And lets not forget the THIRD model that was put on the oval base....

THE VALKYRIE (and Vendetta)!

Are your nids as big as a space ship?

Yes, about. The Trygon is effing huge. It only fits on the large base because it is all curled up. The Tyrannofex would be bigger if a kit existed.

Imagine the Tervigon. It's big enough in fluff to contain dozens of Termagants which pop out fully formed and spoiling for a fight. Plus it has its own six wounds and so on to carry around.

My Tervigon is not as long as a Trygon, but I made it wider, to represent its spawning capacity.

It still isn't remotely large enough to contain all the Termagants it is capable of spawning. I've played games where it spawned 40 Termagants. It's like a bloody Clown Car.

I thought it worked like the Hades Breaching Drill. It tunneled in and the nids cam from behind it. But I have never read the nid dex in detail.

It births Termagants. The Trygon is the tunneling one (and indeed other nids do follow behind him, but only those placed in reserve before the battle started, not an infinite amount).

EDIT: The Termagants inside the Tervigon are said to be larvae (from the Spawn Termagant rule), so it's concievable that something similar in size to the Carnifex can hold all of that. However the fluff is rather contradictory, saying it's termagants in a state of near-life instead of larvae.