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So now that the FAQ's are out there I want to see everyone's opinion on this matter. Which is better?

To clarify, not which is better in a fight between them, but rather which is better as an all-comers army

What needs to be understood is that BT became the best SM army overnight. 5 man termies with 2 missile launchers a piece. And tank hunters. Yah, thats better then long fangs.

I agree, the ability to take a missle launcher each is pretty strong when combined with tank hunters.


Can't they also each have a SS and TH too?

Basically gives them a double barreled lascannon for killing tanks.

Each squad has 4 str 9 attacks on the move, but no TH/SS. Must take target priority check not to fire at closest as -1. Preferred enemy. Need two HQs to unlock all 5 units. 265pts per squad (222 for command squads).

DA are fearless and are assault termies with a 2 str 8 on the move. Need good, cheap HQ to unlock. Scoring unit. 235pts

Both are damn good, but I give the edge to BT by a tiny margin.

If you take the full on 5 BT termie squads, then you should have a marhsall and a chappy, that helps with leadership issues the BTs may have.

The biggest issue for both armies will be psychic powers, particularly lash. It will be very interesting to see how these pan out and if the mighty Wolves will be dethroned! I think that SW will still be tops, but it will be very, very close, which is great! More armies in the top tier, the better.

I dont know much about the Dark Angel codex, but I have studied the Black Templar for quite a while now and basically they gave us a 3+ inv save, missles, and the machine spirit.

Our shooty termies have always been good I dont think it is game changing as shooty termies go down to easy to shooting. Now the assault termies who can re-roll to hit with i 5 str 5 claws or str 9 thunder hammers is going to be hard to deal with.

Our predators can get machine spirit, so we can do the same as Blood Angels just at a much cheaper price.

Reecius wrote:The biggest issue for both armies will be psychic powers, particularly lash.

Honestly, i really dont think so. If the lash is on a DP, then 12 missile shots + however many lascannons you have will deal with it quickly. If its on Sorcs they can only lash 2 squads a turn, and you can probably still outshoot him and out-assualt him whether he chooses to pull or push your squads.

Plus, he has a 24" range on lash. You have a 48" range on missiles. The math is quite simple.

Looking at the Templar Codex, they look pretty nice, but I'm curious, they can't take them as troops correct?

I don't think so, but they are cheaper then other Terminators and can be customized in equipment.

I'm looking at it now, 200 points for 5. +15 if you want FC or Tank Hunters, then The Equipment, looks nice.

Its not possible to take two Cyclones right?

zeekill wrote:

Reecius wrote:The biggest issue for both armies will be psychic powers, particularly lash.

Honestly, i really dont think so. If the lash is on a DP, then 12 missile shots + however many lascannons you have will deal with it quickly. If its on Sorcs they can only lash 2 squads a turn, and you can probably still outshoot him and out-assualt him whether he chooses to pull or push your squads.

Plus, he has a 24" range on lash. You have a 48" range on missiles. The math is quite simple.

Haha, exactly! Which is why a smart player puts lash on a sorcerer. In today's meta of hyper shooty armies, Lash Princes don't last long in games above 1500. Lash Sorcerers in a PM squad though, well those last a lot longer.

revackey wrote:I'm looking at it now, 200 points for 5. +15 if you want FC or Tank Hunters, then The Equipment, looks nice.

Its not possible to take two Cyclones right?

Templars can take 2 in a squad, not on the same guy of course.

but DA can take them on every squad member.

Oh god, if DA didn't need Beliel I would take them in my next tournament.

What's wrong with Belial?

or does the Tourny stipulate "No Special characters"?


if so, its pretty harsh considering DA NEED special characters to be decent. even with their new FAQ.

Grey Templar wrote:What's wrong with Belial?

or does the Tourny stipulate "No Special characters"?


if so, its pretty harsh considering DA NEED special characters to be decent. even with their new FAQ.

No special Characters till 1,500 :/

Then at that level I will be using Vulkan, which in my opinion will do better, and I have everything painted up for that.

Grey Templar wrote:

revackey wrote:I'm looking at it now, 200 points for 5. +15 if you want FC or Tank Hunters, then The Equipment, looks nice.

Its not possible to take two Cyclones right?

Templars can take 2 in a squad, not on the same guy of course.

but DA can take them on every squad member.

Say what?

"One Terminator may take a Cyclone..."

Right from the entry.

Every member can have a chainfist, maybe you were thinking of those.

Ok, i haven't ever read the Wargear options.


from seeing a mix and match loadout on DA builds in the field i assumed they were fully choosable.

Don't the storm bolters tank hunt too?
10 extra S5 shots can come in handy (raiders/trukks).
Especially when you're opponent gets lucky with obscure or "whatever you call it field".

Abhor the Witch gives a 5+ psychic save, not too bad.

Last marine army that can run MSU las/plas; so if you picked up a 3rd edition army cheap, you don't even need to convert.

-Matt

Im pretty sure this is absurd as well:

Tank hunter+suffer not the unclean to live creates effectively S10 powerfists vs vehicles (including walkers). This on top of the 4 S9 missiles and S5 stormbolters for dark eldar/razorback/ork vehicle killing. I know it says the +1 strength is not cumulitive with furious charge, but...tank hunter never gives you plus one strength .

All of a sudden dumping these into your opponents face turn 2 sounds really scary, because even if the missiles dont get you, the fists will kill anything, up to and including a monolith or land raider


Lets also not forget power of the machine spirit on vindicators, and the aforementioned lasplas msu (though rhinos are a bit overpriced)

angels, go look at my post in the "no longer redheaded stepchild" thread for more, but to sum it up teleport homers on all ravenwing bikes+scout+all fearless+deathwing assault turn 1 in the enemy DZ=win

Sorry guys we dont have las/plas razorbacks only twin-linked lascannon option.

Black templars by far. It's 2 heavy weapons per 5 guys stacked with tank hunters.

Remember old school assault cannon spam? This is a return to heavy weapon spam.

5 terminators with double cyclones put out FOUR strength 9 shots a turn. Not 2 like dark angels. FOUR.

scuddman wrote:Black templars by far. It's 2 heavy weapons per 5 guys stacked with tank hunters.

Remember old school assault cannon spam? This is a return to heavy weapon spam.

5 terminators with double cyclones put out FOUR strength 9 shots a turn. Not 2 like dark angels. FOUR.

I think my only concern is getting them knocked off table turn 1 by psyker battle squads. The lack of fearless on a ~300 point unit is a bit worrisome, especially combo'd with the ld check for a single model thing. But as you said, 3 squads are putting out the MOBILE equivalent of 12 lascannons a turn. The concern I see with the dark angels version is lack of anti-landraider and the low model count. Having the opponent have to choose between shooting troops OR termies is what gives the templars an edge over any of the other points made so far. At least in my book.

Im going to post a list for each codex, critique is very much appreciated.

here is the Crusader Wing I have been playing with:

HQ
marshal termie armour thunder hammer storm shield termie command squad (4) cyclone missile launcher (2) tank hunters chain fist (2) 385
marshal termie armour thunder hammer storm shield termie command squad (4) cyclone missile launcher (2) tank hunters chain fist (2) 385

Troops
crusader squad, 5 las-cannon razor back twin-linked las extra armour 190
crusader squad, 5 las-cannon razor back twin-linked las extra armour 190
crusader squad, 5 las-cannon razor back twin-linked las extra armour 190
emperor's champion, 1 suffer not the unclean 125

Elites
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launcher (2) tank hunters chain fist (4) crusader seals 295
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launcher (2) tank hunters chain fist (4) crusader seals 295
terminator squad, 5 cyclone missile launcher (2) tank hunters chain fist (4) crusader seals 295

Fast Attack
land speeder, 1 MML 50
land speeder, 1 MML 50
land speeder, 1 MML 50

Points Summary:
HQ: 755
Troops: 707
Elites: 885
Fast Attack: 150
Total: 2497

Why the search lights and Lascannons on the Crusader squads? wouldn't they be better with something else, a flamer perhaps?

the truth is, they were filler, after getting all of the things I wanted in the army I was left With 15 points left over, so I bought up what was somewhat useful at times.

Edit: hang on I just realized that with that 15 points I can upgrade the castelan to a marshal.

See, something better was found

I would propose for black templars an army similar to Ultra mauleens.

Capt, 5 terminator command squad, tank hunters, 2 cyclones

3*5 elite terminators, tank hunters, 2 cyclones.

bunch of las plas squads. If you prefer rhino squads, you can make special weapon/p. fist rhino squads.
If you prefer razor squads, you can do 5 man special/twin las razorback.

Typhoon speeders/attack bikes.

It's ultramauleens all over again, except tooled for 5th using cyclones, transports, deep striking, and landspeeders instead of the old assault cannon spam.

Actually, templars need *3* HQ's to take 5 termie squads. There is that little thing called "mandatory emp's champ".

So yeah, cliff, your army is actually illegal.
^
Ignore that, saw that he was hidden amongst the troops....

Personally I like deathwing best, but I have always done that so it should come as no suprise...who doesn't like scoring termies?

The Emperor's champion does not take up an hq slot. However we do have the option to make him count as a hq if we please.

Yes, Templars actually get a Free HQ slot that can only be taken up by the Emperor's Champion and he counts as an HQ while not taking up a slot.

Did I say that you had 3 slots? Naaaaahh.

It's only the fact that the champ HAS to be taken, and he can't have a command squad, so you have to have 3 HQ's (That is, 2 marshals/Chappies) to unlock 5 termie units.

And just one of those funny little things..
.BT can have amongst THE most expensive HQ's. Take 2 upped Chappies, an overpriced command squad and a beefed up, lance immune, LRC. That is *1* HQ slot.