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The rules for spell allocation are fairly clear when applied to the 8 Lores of Magic outlined in the BRB. However, when using race specific spell lists from pre 8th Edition army books, it gets a bit foggy. So can a wizard be allocated a spell that has already been taken by another wizard using an ability to substitute spells?

e.g. A Skaven player is rolling for his spells at the start of the game. First, he allocates spells for his Level 1 Warlock Engineer and rolls a 4, Death Frenzy. He decides to swap that spell for Warp Lightning. He then rolls for his Grey Seer and gets a 2, 3, 5 and 6. These are Warp Lightning, Howling Warp Gale, Scorch and Cracks Call. Lets assume the Grey Seer has no interest in Skitterleap or the Curse of the Horned Rat at the moment. Does the Grey Seer...

A) ...keep these spells as rolled? i.e. Because Warlock Engineers always have access to Warp Lightning, they can't block it for other Wizards.

B) ...swap Warp Lightning for another Lore of Ruin spell? i.e. The Warlock Engineer has blocked access to the spell by choosing it for himself, even though if the Grey Seer had rolled Warp Lightning first, the Warlock Engineer could have still taken it.

Im not sure about the skaven example but as far as i know it's just as normal.

Any wizard can swap one of the spells he rolls for the first spell listed, this spell can also be taken by duplicate wizards, the others, as per normal, cannot.

Eldar Own wrote:Im not sure about the skaven example but as far as i know it's just as normal.

Any wizard can swap one of the spells he rolls for the first spell listed, this spell can also be taken by duplicate wizards, the others, as per normal, cannot.

Signature spells can be taken by other wizards, but race specific lores in pre 8th Edition Codexes (aside from Beastmen) don't have signature spells. To be honest, it might just be Skaven where it gets complicated because of the two lores and different spell substitutions permitted for various types of characters.

You choose the sequence of which wizard rolls 1st.
If the warlock goes first and swaps for his signature(warp lightning), he gets warp lightning.
If the grey seer generates 2nd, and rolls up warp lightning, he must swap it (for any spell), because it has already been taken, and it isn't a signature spell for him.
If the Grey seer goes 1st, he could get warp lightning, then the warlock would generate, and the warlock(s) could swap for their signature, warp lightning.
Just generate for one wizard at a time, and apply the rules spell selection to each wizard on his own.
This problem can also come up with high elves; dragon mages get Flaming Sword as the default, a mage with lore of fire get's fireball.

-Matt

Yes, this was my interpretation, but I wasn't sure.

It's quite handy if you do it that way, because you can effetively use lower level skaven wizards to block off spells that you'd prefer the Grey Seer not to get e.g. You roll a Lvl 1 Plague Priest first, allocate him Pestilent Breath regardless of the result and then you're left with spells 2 - 6 for the Grey Seer, which almost guarantees you the spells you want.

Flashman wrote:Yes, this was my interpretation, but I wasn't sure.

It's quite handy if you do it that way, because you can effetively use lower level skaven wizards to block off spells that you'd prefer the Grey Seer not to get e.g. You roll a Lvl 1 Plague Priest first, allocate him Pestilent Breath regardless of the result and then you're left with spells 2 - 6 for the Grey Seer, which almost guarantees you the spells you want.

It's not all the different for other races with normal lores, trying to get that mega-spell.
Lets say I'm playing empire, and I want Dwellers on my level 4 wizard. I also take a level 2.
I generate with the level 2 first, and if I roll up dwellers, I swap for the signature spell.
That leaves 5 spells (or only 4 if I don't roll dwellers), which gives my level 4 a very good shot at getting what he wants.
In fact, the only way to not get dwellers is for the level 2 to not roll it (69% chance), and then the level 4 to not roll a pair, or either spell the level 2 rolled up (2% chance).

-Matt

I think you guys are mistaken.

BRB page 490:
"Ordinarily, each spell can only be known once in the same army. The only exceptions are where a spell is not generated randomly, such as:

-... (irrelevant)
-If the army book or spell lore clearly states that a model can exchange another spell for the spell in question"

I don't think order matters at all. Whoever goes first, the warlock doesn't interfere with anybody else's ability to take Warp Lightning, because the simple fact that he can swap for it negates completely the "only one instance per spell" rule with regard to that particular spell.

I wouldn't stretch it so far as to say that you could take three grey seers and they could all choose warp lightning, although I could envision TFG making that argument, but as far as warlocks are concerned, the BRB is pretty clear.

As above actually - the way I read it is that ANY wizard who can choose a specific spell makes that spell a "can be duplicated" one - so a grey seer who rolled WL after an Engineer had already taken it would NOT be able to swap for something else.

Bother, clearly contentious and not really that clear (BRB ruling is vague and can be read in different ways).

@ HawaiiMatt - It is different for the 8 standard Lores because the signature spell is not part of the D6 chart. Therefore assigning the signature spell to a wizard does not reduce the number of spells on offer.

I'm with Nos and Malleus on this one, though I recognize that it isn't worded the best.

Agreed.

And, honestly, I wouldn't want more than one instance of Warp Lightning. Not when Death Frenzy and Wither are my other options. Ooh. And Skitterleap.

I think it's more than a little odd that GW made several codexes for 8th, but failed to give them a "signature" spell. Maybe they thought it'd be too different from the other books when 7th was still kickin'.

Flashman wrote:Bother, clearly contentious and not really that clear (BRB ruling is vague and can be read in different ways).

@ HawaiiMatt - It is different for the 8 standard Lores because the signature spell is not part of the D6 chart. Therefore assigning the signature spell to a wizard does not reduce the number of spells on offer.

Yeah it does. If you want #6, and a LEVEL TWO wizard rolls up a Six and anything else, you swap #6 for signature. The OTHER spell reduced the number available to the main wizard, from 6 to 5.
If the level 2 doesn't roll up #6, than the level 4 will get it, as their are only 4 spells left.
Even if you roll a pair of 6's, the FAQ states that you can use one of them for any spell you want (as per normal pair rules) and swap the other for the signature.

The reverse can also be done. If I want a level 2 to get, say lore of beast Transformation (because the level 2 has a power scroll), I'll have the level 4 generate first, to block 3 or 4 of the other spells.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Flashman wrote:Bother, clearly contentious and not really that clear (BRB ruling is vague and can be read in different ways).

@ HawaiiMatt - It is different for the 8 standard Lores because the signature spell is not part of the D6 chart. Therefore assigning the signature spell to a wizard does not reduce the number of spells on offer.

Yeah it does. If you want #6, and a LEVEL TWO wizard rolls up a Six and anything else, you swap #6 for signature. The OTHER spell reduced the number available to the main wizard, from 6 to 5.
If the level 2 doesn't roll up #6, than the level 4 will get it, as their are only 4 spells left.
Even if you roll a pair of 6's, the FAQ states that you can use one of them for any spell you want (as per normal pair rules) and swap the other for the signature.

The reverse can also be done. If I want a level 2 to get, say lore of beast Transformation (because the level 2 has a power scroll), I'll have the level 4 generate first, to block 3 or 4 of the other spells.

-Matt

Ah, gotcha. I understand you now.