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So as everyone already knows the new FAQ was released for the DA/BT giving them a much needed boost. Some say it has made them overpowered while others say it was very balanced.

Anyways, I see others already posting questions on counters to these new lists so I wanted to ask what can 'crons do against these new lists? I have always had problems handling terminators but with lists comprised of nothing but termies, it is kind of overwhelming.

Currently my only solutions are using a C'tan and massed destroyer fire both of which aren't great. Monoliths should be safe from their CML as it takes 6's to just glance and no way of them getting a pen but the monolith can't do much in return cause of the 2+/3++ saves.

Suggestions?

Destroyer wrote:Monoliths should be safe from their CML as it takes 6's to just glance and no way of them getting a pen but the monolith can't do much in return

Be careful with that, the BT Terminators can take Tank Hunters, making their CML (2 in a squad) S9.
Though Living Metal only affected Melta and Lance... whoops.

Monoliths are immune to Tank Hunters. Living metal rule counters tank hunters and lance weapons.

What's quietly been good against terminators that no one talks about are lots and lots of wraiths. heavy destroyers aren't bad either.

But honestly the old fashion necron lord porting 20 necron warriors next to a terminator squad and poring in 40 shots is the good old fashioned way of annihilating terminators.

Let the heavy destroyers deal with the feel no pain ones.

You don't need to necessarily kill every last one in a squad. You just need to kill enough that it's no longer a serious hth threat.

A good player will keep his terminator squads together, but that's where the wraiths are good. The wraiths don't kill the terminators, but they don't die in return either...effectively splitting and tieing up expensive terminator squads. If you can keep him from effectively counter charging by splitting his units up..some in hth, some not...The terminators have a hard time with it.

Ah, are they? Well, then. Be careful of the fast Vindicators BT can pull, then.

Gavo wrote:Ah, are they? Well, then. Be careful of the fast Vindicators BT can pull, then.

Or deep striking tanks.

scuddman wrote:
A good player will keep his terminator squads together, but that's where the wraiths are good. The wraiths don't kill the terminators, but they don't die in return either...effectively splitting and tieing up expensive terminator squads. If you can keep him from effectively counter charging by splitting his units up..some in hth, some not...The terminators have a hard time with it.

Pretty sure a 5 man termi squad will wipe or break a Wraith unit in the third round of combat. 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wound, less than one casualty vs. 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, more than one casualty. Second round: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 50% casualty chance vs. 7( on average) attacks, blah, blah slightly under one casualty chance. Considering the per model cost, you aren't even making your points back so you had better be getting a tactical advantage.

The only way this will go well is with a Dlord, two units, a good shorted charge, or just suiciding one units in a multicharge to hopefully buy a round. The Dlord option is scary though, since he'll average 1 wound a turn by himself.

D Lord with Warscythe equals no saves, not even Invuln.

The Grog wrote:

scuddman wrote:
A good player will keep his terminator squads together, but that's where the wraiths are good. The wraiths don't kill the terminators, but they don't die in return either...effectively splitting and tieing up expensive terminator squads. If you can keep him from effectively counter charging by splitting his units up..some in hth, some not...The terminators have a hard time with it.

Pretty sure a 5 man termi squad will wipe or break a Wraith unit in the third round of combat. 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wound, less than one casualty vs. 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, more than one casualty. Second round: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 50% casualty chance vs. 7( on average) attacks, blah, blah slightly under one casualty chance. Considering the per model cost, you aren't even making your points back so you had better be getting a tactical advantage.

The only way this will go well is with a Dlord, two units, a good shorted charge, or just suiciding one units in a multicharge to hopefully buy a round. The Dlord option is scary though, since he'll average 1 wound a turn by himself.

Uh....you're missing a few things.

1. More than likely, if you are in combat with a unit of wraiths, there are two more units of wraith nearby, either in another assault in the vicinity to benefit from the 6" rule, or in the same assault.

2. More than likely, there is also a T6 destroyer lord in there too - whose warscythe ignores armour and invulnerable saves.

3. More than likely there is also at least one monolith in supporting range as well. Those terminators are never going to SEE round 3 of combat. Either they will get mulched by multiple wraith/destroyer lord/C'tan forces, or the wraiths are going to get sucked out of combat (if you've done casualties), ported through the monolith, and after you get flux arced, they will assault in again.

Aman wrote:D Lord with Warscythe equals no saves, not even Invuln.

I assumed this. This is how Dlord gets his one wound per turn. Else it would be much less. Turns out he has 3 attacks at WS 4 I4. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 & 1/3 wound on the charge, or 1 wound in combat normally. Necron Lords are not good combatants.

The Grog wrote:
The only way this will go well is with a Dlord, two units, a good shorted charge, or just suiciding one unit in a multicharge to hopefully buy a round. The Dlord option is scary though, since he'll average 1 wound a turn by himself.

Like I said, you need something more than just a unit of Wraiths in melee combat. Simply charging Termis with Wraiths like the previous poster suggested won't go well, and will go very poorly if there is another unit in charge range. THUS THE SECTION IN BOLD, since you apparently didn't read it. Admittedly, I meant a Dlord accompanying the Wraith unit but failed to sufficiently specify.

There are things you can do to improve the situation, but none of those were mentioned when the subject was brought up. Even playing charge/'port/charge is tying up a lot of points and 2 slots to just about break even on points killed unless you also have a Orb in range, and the flux arc isn't a very efficient weapon against any single unit. If you could shoot multiple units that would be better, but the Monolith is not totally immune to terminator melee anymore. Glances from S8, but it's much easier to be hit in 5th. Now if you do have all of these, a Monolith, Dlord, and a Wraith unit, that is 3 slots and ~550 points to deal 2 wounds per combat round to a terminator unit. This looks bad, but may be the Necron's best way to deal with Deathwing units lacking FNP short of a C'tan. It's also vulnerable to the enemy grouping up for countercharges, since it's not like they will be that concerned about whip fire and Necrons have no other templates.

scuddman wrote:Monoliths are immune to Tank Hunters. Living metal rule counters tank hunters and lance weapons.

What's your reference for this? It's in the 2004 FAQ but not the 2005 I just downloaded.
Thx!

Dashofpepper wrote:

The Grog wrote:

scuddman wrote:
A good player will keep his terminator squads together, but that's where the wraiths are good. The wraiths don't kill the terminators, but they don't die in return either...effectively splitting and tieing up expensive terminator squads. If you can keep him from effectively counter charging by splitting his units up..some in hth, some not...The terminators have a hard time with it.

Pretty sure a 5 man termi squad will wipe or break a Wraith unit in the third round of combat. 12 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wound, less than one casualty vs. 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, more than one casualty. Second round: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 50% casualty chance vs. 7( on average) attacks, blah, blah slightly under one casualty chance. Considering the per model cost, you aren't even making your points back so you had better be getting a tactical advantage.

The only way this will go well is with a Dlord, two units, a good shorted charge, or just suiciding one units in a multicharge to hopefully buy a round. The Dlord option is scary though, since he'll average 1 wound a turn by himself.

Uh....you're missing a few things.

1. More than likely, if you are in combat with a unit of wraiths, there are two more units of wraith nearby, either in another assault in the vicinity to benefit from the 6" rule, or in the same assault.

2. More than likely, there is also a T6 destroyer lord in there too - whose warscythe ignores armour and invulnerable saves.

3. More than likely there is also at least one monolith in supporting range as well. Those terminators are never going to SEE round 3 of combat. Either they will get mulched by multiple wraith/destroyer lord/C'tan forces, or the wraiths are going to get sucked out of combat (if you've done casualties), ported through the monolith, and after you get flux arced, they will assault in again.

Monolith + c'tan=low phase out with only 1 res orb.

You're too good of a de player for me to believe for 1 minute than c'tan are still competitive in the meta game. If necrons need a c'tan to deal with termies what's going to happen when they run into nids or de?

@ schadenfreude - Gauss weapons become relevant, that's what happens, plus Necrons in general aren't super competetive in the metagame. Though I agree that a C'Tan shouldn't be needed to deal with termies.

Gavo wrote:Ah, are they? Well, then. Be careful of the fast Vindicators BT can pull, then.

How many of BT terminator lists have you seen lately packing vindicators?

Back OT, Pariahs can make TH/SS terminators cry. How's running into a unit with 10 warscythes that hit before you sound?

I think necrons have the ability to shrug off tons of missiles and win a shootout with terminator armies. They are aided by the fact that Monoliths can teleport troops out of danger of being assaulted, as well as a necron lord with veil of darkness. They effectively can outmaneuver walking terminators.

augustus5 wrote:

Back OT, Pariahs can make TH/SS terminators cry. How's running into a unit with 10 warscythes that hit before you sound?

Sounds great. I have a better WS and more attacks and S than you.

And wraiths are a terrible choice against Termies. You have to work so hard to whittle those termies down to manageable size before the wraiths can be effective that you're just better off just taking more shots and staying away from them.

augustus5 wrote:
Back OT, Pariahs can make TH/SS terminators cry. How's running into a unit with 10 warscythes that hit before you sound?

I think necrons have the ability to shrug off tons of missiles and win a shootout with terminator armies. They are aided by the fact that Monoliths can teleport troops out of danger of being assaulted, as well as a necron lord with veil of darkness. They effectively can outmaneuver walking terminators.

I agree with Nagashek. The Pariahs are easier to kill than the Termis with shooting and require a charge on open ground to win, last I looked at the math. And it means your opponent is, you know, taking Pariahs and cutting his Destroyer and PO counts to do so. The Pariahs cannot be teleported, and while parts of the Necron army can avoid the Termis you are also going to have trouble contesting objectives if he chooses to camp on them.

Pariahs also fear claw termis, and I don't know what kind of weapon mix the new armies favor.