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Question: I was thinking about modeling some non-combattents to go along side my Imperial Guard army-ie refugees or locals caught in the warzone-, purely for fluff reasons-my guard don't really give a damn about civilians when the hits the fan (hey they could be insurgents in disguise). So yeah, anyone have an idea of how to represent civilians in games-not as guerillas or say toting rifles to defend themselves with, just people? Oh and this is for friendly games, my army's all about the character. ^^

You know, I never really thought about that. I dig the concept of a battle happening in a set of ruins where there are civilians around.
They can be shot, assaulted, etc... Their stats would be normal IG with only a hand weapon. These would be looters, as families would have fled long ago.

That would be an interesting terrain feature. Thanks for the idea.

So maybe use the concript's rules, crap stats, low leadership, to represent them. Hmn...so it could be that if they get killed the enemy gets the victory points, but if they don't I get additional points? Anyone have any ideas for how I would handle their movement; maybe have them flee towards the nearest table edge each turn or the like?

Civilians can also work as moving objectives, moving randomly until a scoring unit is within a certain distance, then joining the unit until they are contested or killed.

As in hostages or the like? The moving randomly idea's a good idea. They move randomly each turn, unless they end up off of the table. Though it isn't very characterful for my guys, if they get close enough to the civs then they could join up with them, whereas the enemy could attack them perhaps? Yup, something along the lines of your idea might be an idea. Hmn...they enemy could also capture them rather than kill them and gain victory points for taking them off the table, or to a pre moddled transporting vehicle-taking them to deathcamps or the like. Thing is that I don't really want them to have much an impact on games though, so maybe something like 50 pts for killing them, 100 pts for taking them off the board or to the vehicle?

DE and Chaos Marines might capture them as slaves/potential acolytes. Necrons might cap them for Pariah production (although highly unlikely so many blanks would be present in one area). Eldar might just take them for some unfathomable reason. Orks and Nids, however, are kill on sight.

Yeah, they would make good objectives, as they're unlikely to do anything more than huddle in one spot when a battle is raging around them.

That and, as mentioned, you could make some special types of missions to use them in.

What I would do for looters or vandels is...

roll a scatter dice and one d6 for movement

If it brings them into contact with a unit then they assault, other wise they shoot at whatever unit is closest (if they have any range weapons.)

Take turns rolling the scatter dice to keep both parties happy.

I'm going to think about this more... when I'm not in the middle of class >.>

Right, so maybe it could be that on a 4+ they move randomly, anything else and they count as pinned? Either opponent can gain points by moving into 2' of them with a scoring unit and then moving that unit within 2' of their own board edge, or a moving them into within 2' of a special transport vehicle and then moving that within 2' of the player's own table edge. So as not to have them impede on games too much they'd be worth say a 5th of the total game points if captured, and a 10th if killed. Modelling downtrodden civilains could be fun (cowering, running, shellshocked, screaming).^^

Oh and Ma55ter_fett, I don't want them to act like guerillas or the like. I want to be just normal folks who have gotten caught up in a battleground-they may well live there. What you've put across is more like the rules for fanatics or the like, not people that are scared lless and just trying to survive as the big bad men with the laser guns blow up their homes.

BTW, Copplestone makes nice fitting civilians like these http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/range.php?range=FW :





I also recommend oop AT-43 civilians like the medical team or the ice world engineers:

That is a cool idea. I just finished reading Dead Men Walking and wondered how to incorporate civilians into games.

I like the idea of using IG Conscript stats for civilians (though I'd drop the leadership stat to 4) and giving them an armor save of 6+.

The moving objective is also a fantastic idea. Since the civilians should be fleeing the battle perhaps have them move 2D6 inches a turn in a random direction, unless there is a "friendly" force nearby, in which case they move 2D6 inches towards the nearest friendly unit. What is considered friendly could be determined before the scenario starts.

If you wanted to get really complicated you could grant some bonuses to the friendly and non-friendly armies for rescuing/capturing the civilians. Perhaps something like a 1 turn morale bonus for the friendly unit, extra CC attacks, or temporary Feel No Pain rules if a civilian unit is rescued. For the non-friendly army, bonuses similar to those granted by DE pain tokens could be granted for butchering/enslaving the civies. Keeping the bonuses temporary should make for interesting game play without breaking the balance of the game too much.

Faction specific bonuses would be great. Perhaps Tyranids could regenerate wounds by devouring civilians, and Necrons could force morale checks on the opposing army for flaying the flesh off of civilians (Dead Men Walking rears its ugly head). Anyway, I am just thinking off the cuff, but this idea in general has a lot of potential.

Hm. I'll have to think about this some more, as I like the concept of having mobile soft objectives on the battlefield. Great thread, Wyrmalla!

The inevitable question is which miniatures would make good civilian stand-ins?

Civilians shouldnt have much in the way of armor saves. Law enforcement might have a 6+ save, but otherwise they are literally wearing cloth.

So conscript rules, drop the lasguns and weapons, drop their save to 6+ (or none at all) and a low leadership value too. Yeah the 2D6 movement might be an idea, as it would represent that they were running blindly through the smog and the gunfire at times, or stumbling, moving cautiously at others. I don't really want them to have game altering rules, so yeah something like a leadership bonus for the turn after they score the civilian unit or the like might be an idea, and a bit of an incentive not to just blow the poor guys apart for the cheap points.

As for minatures I'd be making them myself out of whatever comes to mind at the time. I'll start out with a load of concepts and as a build them try and make the image of the citizenary more solid. Morheim/Empire Militia might be a decent base to start out with seing as I have a loaf of unused sprues laying about for them (which were orinally intended to be used as 40k civilians coincidently when I bought them), but doing them up a bit to make them look less medieval, and a bit more like say the civilians shown in the movie Enemy at the Gates. The odd tattered empire flaggelant may be in order too-living in a war zone's tough. Whatever, I'll see what I can do. ^^

@ Kroothawk. Thanks, some of those guys have given me a few ideas for citizens. I'm thinking the bikerish guys without the guns and say the a few folks wearing clothes suited more to official work, but tattered up a bit. As for the medical team, I had an idea for a similar small squad representing relief foces sent in by the victorious army to help out the civilians a bit (though my owns guy's would be wearing more stark attire). Heh, thanks for the ideas. ^^

Maybe the Lexmechanic from the Witch hunter inquisitor retinue as an administratum drone?

You could say the save is a dodge or cowering behind things save. Since they wouldn't be popping out to fight like soldiers.

Those medics and engineers look amazing! Anyone have other good civilian models?

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Maybe the Lexmechanic from the Witch hunter inquisitor retinue as an administratum drone?

The level of civilian technology on the world in which my army's set is fairly rudimentry. So sure there'll be servitors working for the upper echelons and military units at times as servants, and hard labour, but the masses have to do their own work themselves-sept for the odd antique unit in the hands of some folks. Uh...so yes a servitor that looks fairly gaunt and spindly with antiquated metal bionics may end up in my army, but I'm wanting to represent more of the common people, who are caring more about their own lives rather than their possessions as their homes (and servitors) are blown apart around them.

Kolath wrote: You could say the save is a dodge or cowering behind things save.

The movement rules that I'm concidering right now could mean them being pinned a lot unless accompanied by one of the player's squads. Being pinned gives some sort of bonus to cover saves right? When they join a unit they have that unit's men's bodies to shield them (or the other way around more likely), so maybe giving them no save at all and having them rely on cover saves (which they say get a +1 to because they've been surviving amongst the rubble for a while) may be the best option.

Depending on the level of tech, maybe consider some of the Empire Citizens models?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Civilians shouldnt have much in the way of armor saves. Law enforcement might have a 6+ save, but otherwise they are literally wearing cloth.

Not that I disagree with you, but the Catachan models get a 5+ save and they are wearing nothing but rock-hard abs. I would attribute the 6+ save more to luck than actual armor. For example, the civilian ducked or moved at the last moment missing the bolter shell coming her way.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Depending on the level of tech, maybe consider some of the Empire Citizens models?

As in the Mordheim ones? Most of those guys are too medieval looking, but as I recall the pouting girl might work. Tech level's roughly say like you'd expect in a Eastern European country during the early WWII period, with the odd "high" tech 40k upgrade thrown in there-ie an antiquated auspix, bionic arm, etc. Setting is circa M34 on the edge of Imperial space.

I meant these ones; http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat500016a&rootCatGameStyle=

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I meant these ones; http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat500016a&rootCatGameStyle=

Ah right. Yeah, their far too fantasy looking for what I'm thinking of going for. I'm wanting a either more downtrodden eastern bloc look or circa WWII European civilian, just more dingy looking with torn clothing, bad hair etc.

So the stat line would look like:
(edited on Mechaemperor's suggestion)
WS: 2 BS: 2 T: 3 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 5 Sv 6+
War Gear: Stubbers (Str 2, AP -, Assault 1)
Squads of 5, Move d6(scatter) per round (both players).

Now what to do with them?

Mobile objectives? Save the civilians or "kill da humies"?

Joins with nearby squads? Uh, sure, we'll help you, Imperial Guardsman. Okay, we'll fight scary space elf! Just don't shoot me in the face!

Worth kill points? You're in the way, now GTFO.

I like it!

S might be 2, but T would still be 3 I think. It's stated somewhere that T3 represents a normal human's durability.

Lonecoon wrote:So the stat line would look like:

WS: 2 BS: 2 T: 2 W: 1 I: 2 A: 1 Ld: 5 Sv 6+

Squads of 5, Move d6(scatter) per round (both players).

Now what to do with them?

Mobile objectives? Save the civilians or "kill da humies"?

Joins with nearby squads? Uh, sure, we'll help you, Imperial Guardsman. Okay, we'll fight scary space elf! Just don't shoot me in the face!

Worth kill points? You're in the way, now GTFO.

I like it!

The squad size of 5 sounds right, any larger and they just become big targets, and this allows them to integrate better with other units.

Say they have to take a leadership test each turn that their not with a "friendly" unit and if they fail their pinned, if not they move randomly-or have the hit symbol on the scatter dice cause them to be pinned instead.

As for points. If their wiped out by the opponent to below 25% squad strength, they opponent gets a set amount of victory points (say 50). If the opponent captures them and gets them off the board they get (100). If the other player kills them thereself they get say (25) points (mercy killing or some nonesence(for those guys who don't give a feth about these poor folks)), and if they get them off the table its (150).

If the squad they join is assualted they'll fight the foe, (though maybe on like a 4+ they choose to side with the enemy instead and take their chances against your men).

When did this all get so complicated? ^^

The Squad they join should get Stubborn, to represent the determination of their rescuers (or slavers, who'd want their new merchandise to be in good condition to sell). However if the squad itself ever fails a morale check, then the civilians will detach from the squad (either the slavers lost their attention and the civilians escape to freedom, or the sight at seeing their saviours being gunned down and running destroyed any hopes of sanity left in them) and start falling back (to the nearest table edge). whether or not they get to regroup is up to you, but I'd suggest they will automatically regroup if they join up with anyone eligable for them to join (either new slavers capture the freed civilians, or more big dam heroes come in and save the day).

EDIT: Pinning will also cause them to run. Civilians will likely not have much tactical sense and will much rather flee for their lives if they are getting pinned by an unknown enemy.

Maybe each civilian counts as 1/4 objective, (depending on how many you have, of course) and they move 2D6 in the direction of the scatter die. Roll at the start of each player turn or something?

These seem to be some options for models: http://wk.frothersunite.com/sc/pulp/ww2civilians.htm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also see this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244659.page

Thanks for the links Kolath. ^^ The WWII ones are kind of where my train of thought is going, all I need to do is take those ideas, add a bit of Imperialness to them, and a bit of downtroddeness, and I think I'll get what I want. I suppose the Empire Militia models that I already have'll work, I'll just green on some jackets, caps, scarves etc and maybe get the use out of the beardy heads blister that I bought a while ago then. Woman and children will have to be an investment for another day it seems-I'm just working with what's at hand. =P

Here is my final contribution
Hope it is rather more clear than mud


Imperial citizen

Stat’s are the same as Ig conscript but with a 6+ save
Squad/group consists of 5-10 citizens

Universal special rules that apply to Imperial citizens

Move through cover - in the heat of a fire fight an imperial citizen seeks only to escape making a mad scramble over any debris in their way.

Vulnerable to blasts - with no armor to speak of imperial citizens are especially vulnerable to flying shrapnel.


Special rules,

Hug the ground! – if a unit of imperial citizens lose models to gunfire they immediately hit the dust as per the “Go to ground” universal special rule. They do not rise again until the start of their next movement phase at which point they follow the movement rules as described I the “Milling about” special rule.
Milling about – if no imperial unit has encountered them yet (ie the “we’re saved rule has not come into play) or if the imperial citizens fail the leadership test in the “Imperial edict” rule then at the beginning of the movement phase of the player who went first (at the beginning of the game. Role a scatter dice and 1 d6 and move the unit of imperial citizens that many inches.

We’re saved! – The first imperial unit to come within 6 inches of a squad of imperial citizens makes a leadership test. If they succeed they order the unit of imperial citizens toward their side of the table. Roll 1 d6 to determine how far the imperial citizens move. They continue moving at this speed until they are either ordered otherwise by either player or reach one side of the table or are killed. The imperial citizens will run in the shooting phase if there is an enemy model within 12 inches.

Imperial edict – At the beginning of a players turn if any imperial unit that that player controls is within 6 inches of a squad of imperial citizens; that player can attempt to have their unit direct the citizens to move in any direction (even towards the enemy!). The squad of imperial citizen’s makes a leadership check (as normal) and subtracts from the total ½ of the directing units leadership stat. If the leadership check is passed then the owner of the directing unit may move the citizen unit 1 d6 in any direction during their movement phase as normal. If it is failed roll a scatter dice and 1 d6 and move the citizens in that direction and on the next turn resume movement as directed by the “Milling about” special rule.

Other notes

Imperial citizens count as friendly units to any imperial unit on the board for the purposes of tank shock

No imperial unit may claim a cover save for being behind a unit of imperial citizens unless the citizens are acting under the “Imperial edict” special rule.