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I think this list has potential to take on the 21 lance lists and I.G. leafblower by having 2 outflanking chosen squads, if given first turn.

Daemon Prince with mark of tzeentch and wings 150

Kharn the betrayer 165

4 noise marines, noise champion with doom siren w/ rhino extra armor and dozer blade 195

5 noise marines- blastmaster

5 plague marines- 2 plasma guns, rhino with extra armor and dozer blade 200

5 chosen- 4 meltas in a rhino 165

5 chosen- 3 meltas 1 flamer in a rhino 160

9 obliteratrors- 675

Kharn goes with either outflanking chosen, noise champion squad or plague marines depending on opponent, tzentch daemon prince because i seem to roll a lot of 4+ saves when i need 5+ deepstrikes and runs against shooting armies or for objectives, blastmaster squad hides behind obliterators to get 4+ screen 1 squad obis deep strike from kharns icon to get an objective contested. Any suggestions? I think kharn is better than a second daemon prince because he can hide in a squad and chaos can have other gods I.C. join them unlike chaos daemons

When you give your Chosen units Rhinos they lose Infiltrate, meaning they can't outflank. If you want them both to outflank, they gotta walk. Lately my Chosen melta squads of doom have seemed less and less useful, a couple of small bike squads with meltas might get them where you need them more easily. 9 Oblits is always nasty, will definitely help. What powers are you taking with your Daemon Prince? Definitely recommend Warp Time, nothing like rolling a bunch of 1s and 2s when you hit on 3s. Another thing I've had good success with are some 3-man throw away termie squads, 2 combi-meltas, a reaper, and maybe a chainfist.

That is incorrect, Nerf. Infiltrate confers outflank. Units CAN outflank in a transport, they cannot infiltrate.

You know the rest of my comments, Defeatmyarmy.

We'll have to get a game in to try out the next list once you tighten up a bit.

Infiltrate and Scout confer Outflank. Scouts can outflank with a vehicle, but taking a transport takes away Infiltrate, so at that point, your Outflank goes away. Chosen only have Infiltrate, not Scout, so they cannot Outflank with a vehicle.

I may have missed a FAQ, but that seems like a pretty common sense interpretation to me.

If you can pull off the outflank successfully then kudos, but personally I've never had it work for me.

I hate to be "that guy", but really, double lash is the one thing CSM has going for it these days.

Okay, so I re-read my rulebook and it looks like you are correct. It says units with a transport cannot infiltrate, it does not say they lose the Infiltrate special rule. You would be losing the option of infiltrating them (which has come in handy from time to time) but you're right, you can outflank in a transport. Dammit, now I need another old school rhino!

As for double-Lash, it's good, but with the prepoderance of Psychic Hoods and other 'screw you' psychic abilities out there, you can't count on it. I haven't seen anyone use Noise Marines much, I'm curious to hear how it works.

Nerf wrote:Okay, so I re-read my rulebook and it looks like you are correct. It says units with a transport cannot infiltrate, it does not say they lose the Infiltrate special rule. You would be losing the option of infiltrating them (which has come in handy from time to time) but you're right, you can outflank in a transport. Dammit, now I need another old school rhino!

As for double-Lash, it's good, but with the prepoderance of Psychic Hoods and other 'screw you' psychic abilities out there, you can't count on it. I haven't seen anyone use Noise Marines much, I'm curious to hear how it works.

Well not everybody runs hoods, and most hoods are 24" range, same as Lash. In other words, you can usually stay away from hoods if you're sneaky. Double lashing makes it a lot easier.

But yeah, also curious to hear how it does.

@Nerf

Yeah, outflanking Chosen are tits! They work wonders. I take 2 units for a 75% chance of getting one of them turn 2. They are great.

@Nuggz
I agree that dual lash is the best HQ option. It doesn't always work in a mech world, but when it does work it works big.

I think you can still do well with other builds, but dual lash is not bad at all.

CSM dozers are largely a waste of points, given that they only work when moving 6" or less. I'm also not a fan of spending 15pts on extra armor, except maybe for a Land Raider.

For those 40pts you could give your NM champ a power weapon, buy combi-meltas for both Chosen squads' Rhinos, and have 5pts left over to give the other Chosen squad a flamer as well. I really like the concept of putting a combi-melta on Chosen Rhinos, as it gives them the chance to blow up another tank when they come in. The vulnerability I've found in Chosen squads Outflanking in Rhinos is in KP missions; where you're sometimes feeding your opponent multiple fragile KPs; the Combi-Melta can help offset this.

Also, while Chosen can Outflank in a Rhino, they can't do it with Kharn. Infiltrate has an asterisk by its name in the USR section, which means the squad loses the rule if joined by an IC who doesn't also have it.

Quick question - what psychic powers are you putting on your Tzeen DP? You get to pick 2 (I think) - I like warptime and wind of chaos - expensive tho...

Makes for a froghtening DP!

In that list there are no powers on the prince. He's just taken it for the 4+ invul save. Personally I think the Mark of Nurgle is better if you're going to do that, and just use the Rhinos for cover saves as you advance.

Ahhh - in that case, I agree - Nurgle will give you more resilience.

+1 To whipS.

There are threads about IC outflanking along other units when they (IC) have not such ability. IIRC, they simply have their unit lose that ability (the whole infiltration ability, outflanking included, I think) just because of the IC joining them.
Note that statement being wrong would but do me good, since I would be happy to outflank a couple of IC's in both armies I currently run.

No, you're right. As soon as you join the IC to them, the unit loses the Infiltrate USR, and so can't Outflank.

You're given 6 troops spots for a reason, I'd say drop Kharn and get Berzerkers, and may even replace one squad of Noise Marines for Plague Marines or Berzerkers. I've always been against using Kharn, he has the potential to be dangerous, but he draws too much attention. If you want one squad of chosen to be shot to bits, or want them to be murdered by him in CC, I'd say go for it.

6 troops is not always a good idea, but it's not a bad one, either.

In order to compete, Chaos needs to be able to shoot with the shooty armies and deliver their above average troops into combat or onto objectives.

Chaos must max HS with almost every build strategy to be effective.

After that, the next most powerful Chaos slot is HQ, followed by troops, then elites.

The list he is going to make will be excellent. Dropping the Rhino modifications for another rhino, two lash princes, etc.

The outflanking Chosen squads are excellent. It sounds like some people here have had bad luck with them. You don't have to outflank them, only when appropriate. They can be game changing and at the least force your opponent to alter their game plan to avoid the threat.

Kharn is great, you just have to use him right. He is a beast in combat but he needs to be with the right kind of models. Models with an invul save are great to go with Kharn because they can mitigate his ability to hurt them. Or, just have Kharn go solo. Throw him in another unit's Rhino and away he goes to cause mayhem.