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So I plan to have ork army and I'm wondering whats the best build for say games between 1000 and 1500? I like the idea of the Green Tide.

The Ork Horde is a brutally good army when you build it right. The thing is a lot of people don't know how to play it (as weird as that sounds) or build it right and get pwnd.

Kan Wall is also a really good build, and a lot of fun. It plays like the Horde but has less boys and more toys, which makes painting it easier.

BW spam is a very competitive build.

Orks are cool because you can do a mix of units that aren't really a "build" per se, and still do well.

Really it comes down to how you want to play. The Green Tide though is really good. Just make sure to bring some long range threats like Lootas and Big Guns (Kanons) to open tranports and give you some ranged threats. Snikrot and Co. also work well with this type of list.

Completley agree with Reecius here. I think the Kan wall is my favorite.

my understanding is that the kan wall is ideal around 750-1750 while the battleweagon spam costs more points and therefor would be ideal around 1500+

Cool. So I was thinking of taking a few BW with the green tide, could that work? Btw, did I mention how awesome snikrots model looks? I want to play an army list that has lots of models because Ive collected 2 elite armies(BA and eldar) so I want a nice change

I say Battlewagons, for 3 primary reasons.

1.) Lots of models are a

Painting, moving, transporting, and collecting; masses of Orks are a pain in the butt.

Especially painting and moving. Getting a 30 boy mob painted is hard enough as it is. Imagine doing 3. Also, moving said mob is a huge, huge pain, and really slows down your games. This makes tournaments especially aweful.

2.) Mobility is fun.

There's something so satisfying about getting a 28" charge off on the turn you Waaagh! Once you pull it off, you'll wonder why everyone isn't doing it.

3.) Battlewagons scale up better.

If you eventually decide to go up higher than 1500, Battlewagons scale much better than the Green Tide. You just don't get that much more killing power in the list at higher point values without gimping the core concept, plus you'll see tons of nasty units like Terminator Deathstars that you won't get at lower point levels.

Go Mech. You wont regret it.

Far Seer wrote:Cool. So I was thinking of taking a few BW with the green tide, could that work? Btw, did I mention how awesome snikrots model looks? I want to play an army list that has lots of models because Ive collected 2 elite armies(BA and eldar) so I want a nice change

No, BWs are an expensive choice, and their speed makes your army a 2 wave one. As in you get killed in 2 waves.

Even if you go for a more elite ork army you should outnumber your opponent. Don't force yourself into green tide. For the most part it is a gimmick army that only beats people who have evolved their lists too far towards anti mech, or against new players who don't know how to handle hordes.

Also, don't buy into the propaganda that the ork boy is amazing, because it actually isn't. They die really easy, and are chumps against anything decent in CC. Against some opponents boyz are extra wounds for the nobs... They have their uses, and they are fairly solid, but don't lean too hard on them because they will let you down. The green tide is all boyz... so you can see why I don't recommend it. (also boring to play... 30 minute movement phase, throw 90 dice, kill 5 marines kind of boring)

Burst my bubble :( how about a trukk boyz list?

Yep they can definitely work as well and are crazy when spammed, 6 units of Truck Boyz, 3 units of Rokkit Buggies + your heavy hitters also in Trucks is a ton of light armour and usually far more targets than can be dropped before they hit your lines.Trucks are usually taken with Rams so you can turn into a driven missile when you want to.

Orcs were one of my primary opponents when I first started 40k. The best builds I have seen is the Kan Wall Build w/ max boys. It can very easily control the center of the board. About the only way to face such an army is to make sure you have templates and pie (just by having them you will force the enemy to run max coherency or die in droves) and refusing a flank. This can buy you a little extra time but the orks will still do amazingly well in capture and control and sieze ground mission (by virtue of covering nearly half of the board w/ orcs.

Far Seer wrote:Burst my bubble :( how about a trukk boyz list?

Trukks are the worst transport in the game. Unless you have something else to draw fire, most if not all of them will be wrecks by the end of turn 1. 1/3 of the time they will scatter, and 2/3 of the time they will explode, killing 1/3 of the unit inside.

AV10 open top with ramshackle is not a good place to be. Also 10-12 boyz with PK nob is enough to hurt whatever it hits, but quite often not enough to destroy it. The problem being is the trukk boy squad is in no shape for another round of combat whether it won or not.

A few trukks with the right units inside of them is useful though. I am a fan of MANZ missiles. 3 meganobs riding in a trukk. Its cheap and dirty, and it isn't impossible to hide a trukk behind a battle wagon or two.

@ Reccius: can you point me in the direction of tips for how to build green tide correctly? I'm toying around with adding snikrot, lootas, and/or deffkoptas to a core of boys with KFFs. But I'm very new to Orks.

I'll say something like this could work for your Green Tide:

H.Q.
Big Mek: Kff

Ghaz

Elites

Lootas 10x

Lootas 10x

Snikrot + 5 Boyz

Troops

25 Boyz with PK Nob

25 Boyz with PK Nob

25 Boyz with PK Nob

25 Boyz with PK Nob

Fast Attack

Deffkopta Twin Linked Rokkits/Buzzsaw

Deffkopta Twin Linked Rokkits/Buzzsaw

This list I think runs around 1750 ish. It's nasty enough; however, I feel that Boyz could get away with forgoing Lootas for 3 Killa Kan squads. They're tough to bring down, absorb a slowed amount of firepower and usually the amount of Boyz combined with Kanz will overwhelm many people.

Notabot, I really don't agree with your logic. I've read some ork posts before of yours and they are confusing.

Ork boyz are good as they are. Sure there is the crappy save but there's nothing wrong with that. If you amass the numbers of hide the boyz you beat this issue no problem.
MANZ missiles aren't a smart tactic considering once the trukk goes they are toast. Trukks however are meant to be completely rubbish and yet they work. They're one of the fastest transports on the field and I would not easily toss them out. Considering I've used 5 in one go they work pretty darn well.

Green Tide armies are boyz boyz and more boyz. Nuff said. You can easily spice it up with lootas and kommandos and its perfectly achievable within 1500pts. Most people would dictate furiously that you take a KFF big mek for easy cover saves, however I'd point out that you'd have enough boyz for giving the otehrs cover. I'd personally recommend having Ghazghull in there for that special Waaagh! and maybe a weirdboy to see if you can keep a Waaagh! going

I think that if you like the idea of green tide, green tide is the way to go. Kans add a little flavour and the models are great. As to the issue of green tide slowing down the game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Playing_a_Horde_Quickly

Dont let Notabot change your mind on how you build your army. If your wanting to take Orks into a competition then yea hes probably right. But playing against friends or a game store those other lists can still be fun and kick ass. My first Ork build was a trukk list. I would have 4 or 6 trukks, 6 to 9 rokkit buggies and 2 BW with the real heavy hitters inside. That list was fast, had loads of 4+ cover saves and when Id hit the lines it would just crush whatever I threw it at.

You said your liking the idea of green tide, then go for it. Tons of boyz, PKs everywhere and can still hit like a 10ton hammer. Sure the green tide has its weaknesses but in all honesty what build doesnt? theres no such thing as an unstoppable list, youll take advantages and lose advantages in any list you build. Also the great thing about starting off horde, is later if you want to try any other Ork build, youve got enough boyz to cover it no matter what. Also the good thing about hordes, is there is just so many bodies, they cant all die before the game ends (unless you bunch them up and let your friends template the hell out of them)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mustela wrote:I think that if you like the idea of green tide, green tide is the way to go. Kans add a little flavour and the models are great. As to the issue of green tide slowing down the game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Playing_a_Horde_Quickly

Really though, thats a good way to play weather your a horde player or not, nice find, and now his Forum name makes more sense to me

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Notabot, I really don't agree with your logic. I've read some ork posts before of yours and they are confusing.

Ork boyz are good as they are. Sure there is the crappy save but there's nothing wrong with that. If you amass the numbers of hide the boyz you beat this issue no problem.
MANZ missiles aren't a smart tactic considering once the trukk goes they are toast. Trukks however are meant to be completely rubbish and yet they work. They're one of the fastest transports on the field and I would not easily toss them out. Considering I've used 5 in one go they work pretty darn well.

Green Tide armies are boyz boyz and more boyz. Nuff said. You can easily spice it up with lootas and kommandos and its perfectly achievable within 1500pts. Most people would dictate furiously that you take a KFF big mek for easy cover saves, however I'd point out that you'd have enough boyz for giving the otehrs cover. I'd personally recommend having Ghazghull in there for that special Waaagh! and maybe a weirdboy to see if you can keep a Waaagh! going

How are my ork posts confusing? My basic position is that ork boyz aren't good. You are free to disagree.

Ork boyz in small squads might kill 1 target, if they actually do, there won't be enough models left to do much other than hide and hope to survive. Big ork squads tend to do pretty well in combat, but if they don't wipe their target, often lose combat (even when they come out ahead in terms of points). When they do this, they often take a bunch of fearless wounds. Considering casualties going in, combat losses, then failed fearless saves, this is enough to put them below or really close to below fearless. They aren't in any shape to take another turn of combat.

Shooting with the orks is could be decent, except they have short range, bad BS, so you need a big mob to do anything. Big mobs means that you are going to have trouble moving your unwieldy unit into a position to fire. Even then you only really kill about 3-4 marines with that. Those big mobs are also pretty obvious no go zones for the opponent until they have been shot down to size.

Lets look at the cost of a trukk boy squad: min cost is 9 boyz + PK nob (no nob = no point to the squad)+trukk (no upgrades) = 130 points. Assuming choppas this squad puts out 36 normal attacks and 4 PK attacks.
Lets look at the cost of a MANz missile: Min cost is 3 Mega Nobz + trukk (no upgrades) = 155 points. That is 12 PK attacks.

So a 25 point difference between them.

Trukk boyz VS: marines assumng the trukk boyz take no casualties (not going to happen) and don't fire (to avoid missing out the assault) they should kill just under 3 marines with normal attacks, and just under 2 with the PK.

Manz Vs boys: Same assumption about no casualties (but more likely with Manz) and don't fire (same reason) they should kill 5 marines.

So against infantry Manz slightly out preform a min squad of trukk boyz. But against tanks the Manz are almost 3 times as good (3 times the PK attacks)

Also if the trukk boyz trukk dies (and explodes) you will lose about 13 of the squad. This is a morale test and a pinning check.
If the manz trukk dies and explodes, they should lose 0 models. (less saves, 2 wounds per model, and better armor) Still need to take a pinning check...

I'm not basing my bias off of just theory hammer. I played orks pretty heavily during 4th ed, and during the beginning of 5ed. During 4ed I ended up take boyz completely out of the army. Brought the boyz back for 5th ed, and they were even worse performers than last edition. Gretchin score better (being cheap and annoying for the opponent to shoot) nobs combat better (either kind). Tons of better stuff you could be taking if you don't spend points on boyz. The most I currently run is 20 in a battle wagon. This is the typical triple wagon list, 1 wagon for nobs, 1 for burnas, and 1 for boyz. Manz missiles or lootas fill out the points.

*bows*

Orks are fun whatever build you play. A couple things I've been trying lately are the ork static gunline (lots of shoota boyz, maxed lootas and kannons), and a biker horde with wazdakka (not necessarily nob bikers, although one unit of those does give you the assault punch you need).

Redbeard wrote:*bows*

Orks are fun whatever build you play. A couple things I've been trying lately are the ork static gunline (lots of shoota boyz, maxed lootas and kannons), and a biker horde with wazdakka (not necessarily nob bikers, although one unit of those does give you the assault punch you need).

I really like my bikers, don't get them out that often, but they actually have really effective shooting.

3 twin linked S5 shots on a bike with 18 inch range is very nice. They are effectively heavy bolters, and they are actually cheap enough and can be massed enough to be good.

Done the gunline too, lots of shooting. The shoota boyz make your opponent want to stand away from the big mobs, while they get hammered by cannons and deffguns. Not especially good in missions, but it is effective.

Simple answer for ya. Try a Kan wall. It's super fun to build, very competitive, and not as monotonise (sp) as painting a horde. Kan wall should have lots of kans (9) some lootas (2x5), boys (at least 60), big mek with kff and maybe a few suicide buzz coptas. Lots of unique things, cool models and fairs very well. Use it if you like 1000-1500 pt games.

1000-1500 points is perfect for a kan wall imo, I only run 6 kans at 1500 so I can take more boyz and a couple toys but boy heavy, or should I just say numerically heavy lists at 1500 is a sweet spot for orks, lots of armies have hard times bringing enough to deal with a lot of orks at that limit, once you get above that then other armies can start to open them up more but there it is. Also at 1500 points playing model heavy armies isn't that bad, you only gotta move maybe 90 boyz plus 20-30 other models, it doesn't take too long.

I will agree that the standard "green tide" lists can get, "stale" in play but that kan wall allow you to use different tactics other than "charge!" well still allowing you to win games by charging forward, it's a fun build, especially when so many other armies rely on transports, it provides a different playstyle keeping things less stale.

Polonius wrote:@ Reccius: can you point me in the direction of tips for how to build green tide correctly? I'm toying around with adding snikrot, lootas, and/or deffkoptas to a core of boys with KFFs. But I'm very new to Orks.

Here are a few tips for a green tide army

* Always bring you boys in 30 boy mobs. You will need at least 4 of these.
* Every mob gets a PK. Thats your real weapon, as the boys are just for flavor.
* Shootas are the reccomended for green tide. Play the models you have, however. If you have 120 sluggas, then use em!
* Congo-line your boys, don't blob em. Odds are you will be making difficult terrain checks every round, but that will help a LOT in getting cover.
* Congo-lined boys are much less vulnerable to pie plates and flamers.
* When you assault, assault with as many squads as possible. The PKs are your weapon, so get 3 of them on 1 squad of MEQ.
* Take a unit of 29 grots + 2 runtherders. Use them as screens or object campers. Nothing is harder to shoot off an objective than 31 models going to ground.
* Take 3 - 6 deffkoptas. These are your anti-transport weapons. Each one hits 55% of the time. This can be traded in place of lootas.
* Always take snikrot. He rarely 'makes his points back' but disrupts your enemy plans, which can be extremely fruitful. That being said, I've seen him and his krew kill 3 oblits.
* I take 2 warbosses and just use cover to get my boys saves. Relying upon a 'mek is not required IMHO. Ork warbosses are amazing buys for their cost.
* Zagstruk is good for assassination. You can deep strike him then assault a pesky set of vehicles that are causing you problems, oblits, etc...
* Lootas are great for anti-transport. Their long range lets them sit far back and just crack open those rhinos. 15 of them are great.
* Don't take nobs. Thier to juicy of a target for your opponent. When he can shoot a 6 point ork or a 25 point nob, which will he choose? Hide your nobs in boys.
* Burna boys/TankBustas are extremely optional. Bad players wont shoot them....good players will..
* You only have 1 squad of kommandos, run by snikrot. Thats all you need. Give em 2 flamers and 15 strong.
* It will be a long game. Don't be in a rush. Takes a while to move that many models a turn.

The goal of the green tide is to swamp the board with ~180 models. It hurts the meta because melta/plasma guns are not as good vs. boys.
This army is not a winner in tourney's however, because it takes a long time to play, and the game time will be called before your in assault long enough to do enough good.

@Polonius

These are the tactics used by the Best Ork Horde player I know. He routinely crushed people, including some of the best players int he country. The only reason no one's heard his name is because he doesn't like playing more than 2 games in a day and so doesn't go to many GTs. He obliterates elite armies and most mech armies. The only time I have seen him lose are to armies with the ability to deal massive wounds in combat. I have seen him lose to a Daemon player with 18 fiends who kept rolling well on his hit and run rolls, and against a crazy deathstar unit that had Pedro, Casius, and 7 GKTs. That army walked through his boys, just couldn't stop it.

But, in general, he literally wins about 90% of his games against some top notch players.

His list goes like this:

Warboss on bike with the fixings (he lurks in a boyz mob until they get close, then he seperates to go and hit something vulnerable).
Mek with KFF (he gives the boyz a cover save, increasing durability by 33%)
2 x 30 shoot boyz with gear
2 x 30 slugga boyz with gear
3 units of lootas (usually around 5 to 7 lootas per unit)
3 units of big guns (all kannons, with maxed ammo runts)
20 stormboyz (crazy fast disruption unit to tie up enemy units or as a mobile reserve to go where the line needs to be bolstered)
After this he takes either Snikrot or, believe it or not, tank busta boyz. The tank bustas work well for him, which is crazy.

At 2K he shoots to have about 200 models on the table.

The army has enough shooting to scare light mech lists, and so many boys that it is literally impossible for a lot of armies to kill them all.

Like you said, it is a meta killer. With people gearing up for mech, this list is such a spoiler. Melta guns are a total waste. The key to it is being able to move the models fast enough while maintaining proper spacing to mitigate templates/blasts in time to play a 2K game. To know how to play your reserves, when to unleash the warboss and the stormboyz, and when to call the WAGGH!.

Like I said, one of the best armies I have ever played against. When played right, knowing where to focus the pressure, most standard tournament lists will be seriously helpless against you.

@Farseer

Don't let people dissuade you from running what you want.

BW orks are a tournament winning army, and have won many tournaments to back that statement up. They are very good. If you go that route, take 3-5 of them backed up by other Ork standby units like Lootas, Deffkoptas, Boyz, etc.

Also, Ork Trukk Boyz are not as bad as people say. MVBRandt has a list with 5-6 units of Truk Boyz, Deffdreads, Kans, Rokkit Buggies, and Lootas and Hulksmash said it is one of the best lists he's every played against. Orks really can take a grab bag of units and so long as you know how to apply them, you can win.

Thanks a lot Reece! I'm fiddling around with orks, and right now I'm kind of buying a little of everythin until I decide what to focus on. I wouldn't have guessed big gunz, but I suppose their problem isn't how good they are, but the general competition for the Heavy support slots.

Polonius wrote:Thanks a lot Reece! I'm fiddling around with orks, and right now I'm kind of buying a little of everythin until I decide what to focus on. I wouldn't have guessed big gunz, but I suppose their problem isn't how good they are, but the general competition for the Heavy support slots.

If you are scraping for points, cannons are actually not too bad. 20 point missile launchers with grot BS. It is worth investing in extra crew, and possibly the run herd. 5 additional crew is 15 points, and the herder is 10. Keeps the guns firing longer, and if they take a morale test they get a reroll at LD7.

Wow, Thanx for all the adviceguys! I'll see if I can't write up a hybrid horde/Kan wall list

I agree on the kannons. Ive played a few times with 9 of them and its great pouring 9 krack missiles into whatever your fighting. Ive fiddled around with ideas of taking as many rokkits as possible and really you can get the number of rokkits up fairly high. For example heres a quick idea

BigMek 85pts
KFF

BigMek 85pts
KFF

Shoota boyz x30 250pts
rokkit launcha x3
nob
pk
bp


Shoota boyz x30 250pts
rokkit launcha x3
nob
pk
bp

Shoota boyz x30 250pts
rokkit launcha x3
nob
pk
bp

Rokkit buggies x3 105
TL rokkits x3

Rokkit buggies x3 105
TL rokkits x3

Rokkit buggies x3 105
TL rokkits x3


Big Gunz 88pts
Kannonz x3
grot krew x6
runtherd

Big Gunz 88pts
Kannonz x3
grot krew x6
runtherd

Big Gunz 88pts
Kannonz x3
grot krew x6
runtherd



Now just using that, its 1499pts and mainly using boyz for the bulk of the army. But still using that list you get 21 rokkits a turn, and 9 of those are TL and 9 of those are BS3. You can up it even more by trying your luck with tankbustas and such, but 21 rokkit attacks a turn is not bad at all, your going to smoke vehicles and MEQs like its nothing.

But back on topic here, kannons can be really effective, there main drawbacks are heavy support (but if you go for a foot army, that opens up a bit more) and the fact that they are artillery, and the rules for artillery make them easy to blow up.

Yeah, the Kannons are surprisingly good. With ammo runts to wtin link them the first turn, they are also surprisingly accurate!

Good luck with it guys.

@Polonius

Haha, now you will probably school me with a Horde list at a tournament! That would be funny, like hey, I recognize that list!

IMHO the best way to play orks is having a green tide and a trukk boy list. The trukks hold up the enemy nicely, allowiing you're boyz to get quite far, then call the waaagh and there you go. Somtimes kanz work well with it aswell

9 kans, Mr. thraka/nobs in a trukk, shokk attack gun so you can get the deff dread as troop then fill the rest out with boyz and ALWAYS max out your rokkits on everything is a very hard army to beat i dont care how great you are with horde armies. thousands of boys will die but hey dont get attached and youll be fine.