Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Black Templar Sword Brethren (the non-terminator flavor) has never really been a 'must have' unit. Other units can fill the same role in a cheaper and more efficient manner. But I wanted to take another look at them after the FAQ to see if there is anything I may have overlooked...maybe some niche purpose.

There REALLY isn't any reason to take them, is there? I don't know...they're a cool unit...just not worth taking at all, are they?
Terminator units with storm shields are roughly the same cost (maybe 4pts more) than a Sword Bro unit armed with stormshields and Term honors.
No point to make Sword Bros a shooting unit.
And I can't think of why you'd take them in any situation. Well...unless you are really committed to fielding a fluffy themed army.

So do you guys think they have ANY redeeming value?

Spiff wrote:Black Templar Sword Brethren (the non-terminator flavor) has never really been a 'must have' unit. Other units can fill the same role in a cheaper and more efficient manner. But I wanted to take another look at them after the FAQ to see if there is anything I may have overlooked...maybe some niche purpose.

There REALLY isn't any reason to take them, is there? I don't know...they're a cool unit...just not worth taking at all, are they?
Terminator units with storm shields are roughly the same cost (maybe 4pts more) than a Sword Bro unit armed with stormshields and Term honors.
No point to make Sword Bros a shooting unit.
And I can't think of why you'd take them in any situation. Well...unless you are really committed to fielding a fluffy themed army.

So do you guys think they have ANY redeeming value?

The only thing I can think of is to make use of their Infiltrate ability. I don't play BT so I don't know if this is actually a good idea, but they have pretty good access to the armory, so I imaging there is a way to kit them to be effective in this role.

notabot187 wrote:

Spiff wrote:Black Templar Sword Brethren (the non-terminator flavor) has never really been a 'must have' unit. Other units can fill the same role in a cheaper and more efficient manner. But I wanted to take another look at them after the FAQ to see if there is anything I may have overlooked...maybe some niche purpose.

There REALLY isn't any reason to take them, is there? I don't know...they're a cool unit...just not worth taking at all, are they?
Terminator units with storm shields are roughly the same cost (maybe 4pts more) than a Sword Bro unit armed with stormshields and Term honors.
No point to make Sword Bros a shooting unit.
And I can't think of why you'd take them in any situation. Well...unless you are really committed to fielding a fluffy themed army.

So do you guys think they have ANY redeeming value?

The only thing I can think of is to make use of their Infiltrate ability. I don't play BT so I don't know if this is actually a good idea, but they have pretty good access to the armory, so I imaging there is a way to kit them to be effective in this role.

Well, you could infiltrate with double melta, but since you can't be closer than more than 12, you're not gonna get 2D6 for the pens. Possibly las- or plasma cannons? Really wouldn't anyway.

If they have the infiltrate ability, do they also have the scout ability?

Because then you can infiiltrate them, either scout move or not (depending on if they have the ability) up 6" (or 2d6), then during the first turn move them 6" (or 2d6) to within melta range / assault range of vehicles.

no, they are basically the same as the troop marines, but have a large number of available upgrades.

They aren't useless persay, but since BT is mostly "field tons of infantry with Preferred enemy, meatgrind enemy into chowder" they are a little finesse-y for what people are expecting from bt ;P

Put 5 of them (2pw 1lc 2 cc/bp) with the BT EC in a razorback and give the Sword Bro's FC, maybe?

what?

Infiltrate with a multimelta/melta for area denial? Then if shot, advance with your consolidate moves and you can still shoot the multimelta....


even then it is 115 points for not much firepower.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Put 5 of them (2pw 1lc 2 cc/bp) with the BT EC in a razorback and give the Sword Bro's FC, maybe?

@Grundz
Put the Emperor's champion with two powerfist marines, a lightning claw marine, and a regular chainsword/bolt pistol marine in a Razorback, giving them Furious Charge.

Dashofpepper wrote:If they have the infiltrate ability, do they also have the scout ability?

Because then you can infiiltrate them, either scout move or not (depending on if they have the ability) up 6" (or 2d6), then during the first turn move them 6" (or 2d6) to within melta range / assault range of vehicles.

They can sort of perform a scout move if you take the vow Abhor the Witch. However they must set up with the rest of the army. Although that relies on the opponent having a psyker in their army. However, most competitive builds have psykers these days. Sword Bretheren have always been a worthless unit anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grundz wrote:no, they are basically the same as the troop marines, but have a large number of available upgrades.

They aren't useless persay, but since BT is mostly "field tons of infantry with Preferred enemy, meatgrind enemy into chowder" they are a little finesse-y for what people are expecting from bt ;P

They are overpriced and have terrible options.

How much for a unit of five with a couple of meltas, maybe a cc upgrade as well, to Outflank and disrupt the enemy backfield?

I like to think of them as Chosen without the weapon options... both are a little more expensive than normal Marines, both have Infiltrate, and both have expanded armory access. Chosen's role is pretty obvious, 5 Special Weapons Outflanking/Infiltrating. SB seem a little more CC oriented, but too expensive when Termies are right there for only a tiny bit of more points.

5 guys with MM and either melta or plasma infiltrating only costs 115 points. I personally would love the chance to infiltrate a MM that close. Its only 15 more points than the typical C:SM scouts with cammo cloaks and H/Bolter, for a much better unit.

Except that it doesn't score. I'd be inclined not to take the MM, since you can't move & fire it, but Infiltrating a MM in cover within T1 shooting range might well be worth it.

odorofdeath has picked up what I was getting at- I think the closest parallel is CSM Chosen. The Sword Brethren can't take as many special weapons, but if they can get 1-2 and a Fist, they could still potentially bust up enemy backfield units, and contest objectives near a table edge. And of course, if you're using them, you deliberately place objectives close to table edges.

Feh. I'm not convinced.

I don't think a squad that is light on the upgrades (ranged or close combat) would be great to infiltrate. Not sure if they'd fit in with my current BT army build/style anyway.

My emperor's Champ has had good experience running up with a big initiate/neophyte squad. At least they can generally tarpit a squad while the EC hacks away at it. And I don't think Brethren are a good close combat unit compared to other options available.
EC + Sword Bros. MIGHT...MIGHT be good with honours, powerweapon/lightning claws, furious charge and a land raider crusader. But that's a big commitment.

Karuthors: who the heck would take Abhor the Witch when they can have an entire army that has preferred enemy?... Eh. I guess I can't blame you for brain storming.

I think I'm more inclined to kick around some ideas as to incorporating a second HQ with a command squad. I could see a Marshal/Reclusiarch combo with a well-fitted squad doing well.