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Hey guys,

I ran into a situation yesterday which was so oddball I didn't even bother protesting because it would have taken me half an hour and would look like an ass, being the one newcomer to a group of regulars and to say they are running the assault all jacked up. But then again, I could be wrong. Here's what happened.

Chaos Space Marine Vs. Necrons. Enemy Khorne Berzerkers (with Kharne independent character attached) assault my Necron warriors with a Necron Lord attached. Instead of separately attacking my Necron Lord with one unit or another, he claims, and does, designate a certain amount of models in his berzerker squad that are within 2" b2b and all that, which will attack. And some berzerkers would go for the main squad of warriors. So my Necron lord falls, and then continued attacks against my warriors ends up with three out of 10 left standing and a failed Sweeping Advance test for them. This all happens in one assault phase.

Then, when I claim that Sweeping Advance specifically destroys the unit, and that I should remove it from the board, they claim the lord and three left standing (everyone else got hit with power weapons) should get their WBB rolls and merge with the near enough squad of Necron warriors. Plus my Necron Lord would get his WBB roll as well. I was under the impression that both the lord and the warriors were toast, period.

Any advice on this one?

Ok there's a few issues here.

Basically the berzerkers that are in b2b (or 2"away) from the lord may direct their attacks against him. Kharne can only attack the Lord of he is in b2b.

Remember with WBB wounds are considered at inititive step, so if the Lord dies at a higher I step than the warriors, they do NOT benefit from his resurrection orb that combat.

If a necron squad is wiped out, then unless it meets tomb spider criteria, or is within 6" of another unit of the same type, then that unit is destroyed permanently.

If any necrons were left standing after the combat (and im assuming they lost), they take a Ld test. If they fall back and are swept, they are destroyed and removed from play no matter what.

If the Lord was downed before the sweeping advance, then he may test to WBB, otherwise he is swept with the unit as well.

The lord has his own WBB rules. If he is carrying a resurrection orb, then he may ALWAYS WBB, assuming he is killed by comventional means (i.e. losing all his wounds).

Without pulling out the codex to cite pages, how Liam explains it is how I have always seen it played. Just one note:

Basically the berzerkers that are in b2b (or 2"away) from the lord may direct their attacks against him. Kharne can only attack the Lord of he is in b2b.

If some is in base to base then must direct their attacks at the touching model, regardless of the 2" assist range. Also if they are in btb with more then one model they may choose to split their attacks between the two.

Yup, good catch Acidwraine.

liam0404 wrote:
If the Lord was downed before the sweeping advance, then he may test to WBB, otherwise he is swept with the unit as well.

The lord has his own WBB rules. If he is carrying a resurrection orb, then he may ALWAYS WBB, assuming he is killed by comventional means (i.e. losing all his wounds).

The lord does have his own rules, however, if he is joined to a unit then he is a part of it. If the unit is destroyed by a sweeping advance, then the entire unit is destroyed, including the lord.

Not if he's killed first he isn't. He surely can't be part of a unit any more if he is dead can he? Downed necrons = debris, so I can't see how this would keep him attached to the unit.

For example, say a lord with pariahs wins a combat, but the lord is downed. If he successfully WBB the next turn, he wouldn't rejoin the Pariahs. He would stand up where he was downed, and fight on from there. Im fairly sure this is explained in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, having checked the FAQ and the rulebook, there is nothing to support your argument. Yes, the unit is destroyed, but the lord is "already dead". How can you sweep something that's already dead?

liam0404 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, having checked the FAQ and the rulebook, there is nothing to support your argument. Yes, the unit is destroyed, but the lord is "already dead". How can you sweep something that's already dead?

Because he is still part of the unit. This from the last Necron FAQ;

Q. If a unit of Necrons falls back after taking
casualties, how best to keep track of whether
they are effected by a resurrection orb or not?
A. A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in
close combat by a unit with power weapons.
However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To
keep things simple, when the casualties are
suffered, assess whether they are in range of the
resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and
move them with the unit. If they are not in range
of the resurrection orb, remove them entirely.
You will then know how many WBB rolls to make
at the start of your next turn. The same logic
applies if the Necrons fall back after taking
shooting casualties.

So the Necron unit, including the lord, takes a number of wounds in cc. They lose the assault because they took more wounds than their opponent. AThey then fail their morale check, so they will falll back. If they fall back, all of the models in the unit, including the lord, will fall back. If the unit is now caught by a sweeping advance, the entire unit, which the lord is still a part of, is destroyed.
The FAQ makes no distinction between an attached IC and the unit itself.

But again you have failed to answer my point.

If the lord is "downed", he is considered dead/debris. So therefore he is a casualty as far as the wounds of the combat are concerned. So at that point, he cannot be considered to be part of any unit can he? Yes his wounds sufffered coutn to combat reoslution, but if he is "dead", then he surely ceases to be part of the squad, and therefore will NOT join the unit as the unit falls back.

I don't think you two are talking about the same instance.

Liam> If a lord dies in close combat before a sweeping advance, he remains down and the rest of his old unit thaw was alive during the sweep are removed completely.

time wizard> If a lord is part of a unit when a sweeping advance is made, the lord is also removed from play.

I think i made that point pretty clear in my original post....

If you have a unit of Necron Warriors with a lord attached, and the lord suffers his last wound and is "down", and the unit loses the combat and has to fall back, what do you do with the lord?
Do you leave him lying there on the table while the unit falls back?
The FAQ says that he falls back with the unit.

Please tell me where in the faq it mentions lords and falling back in the same paragraph.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually there is one, but is irrelevant in the context of this debate.

liam0404 wrote:Please tell me where in the faq it mentions lords and falling back in the same paragraph.

The FAQ says that when the unit falls back the casualties are moved with the unit.
The BRB on page 48 says that independent characters may not join or leave a unit during the Shooting or Assault phases.
Therefore they are all still part of the unit.
And the assault phase doesn't end until all assaults have been completed.
Morale checks and sweeping advances are included in combat resolution.
So if the unit gets swept, the falling back unit is destroyed. All of them.
Unless you're trying to say that any downed Necron models can't be destroyed by a sweeping advance?

Yes the Lord would have to be moved with any other downed warriors if they succesfully passed an initiative test and were falling back as even though they are classed as debris they were/are part of that unit until they fail their WBB roll, since the Lord is attached he cant move out of coherency of that unit until the movement phase if he gets back up.

Time Wizard the downed warriors are not removed as they have to wait for their WBB rolls, regardless if the rest of their unit gets removed from play by a sweeping advance.

No, but the necron codex has specific instructions about what to do with a lord when its last wound has gone.

Remember there are 2 units in the squad, the lord and the warriors. When the lord dies, that's no longer the case. The warrior unit will be destroyed, but the lord will not. He ceases to be a part of the unit the moment he is downed. As the codex ssts, if he is successful with WBB, he stands up where he was lying, and fights on. If he doesn't rejoin a unit at this point, why Would he be considered to rejoin one in death? It makes no sense whatsoever.

@ userarm - I know they are removed, I was making a point!

liam0404 wrote: No, but the necron codex has specific instructions about what to do with a lord when its last wound has gone.

Sure it does. He is lain down like any other Necron that is reduced to 0 wounds. His difference is that you do not need another lord within 6" for him to attempt WBB.

liam0404 wrote:Remember there are 2 units in the squad, the lord and the warriors. When the lord dies, that's no longer the case. The warrior unit will be destroyed, but the lord will not. He ceases to be a part of the unit the moment he is downed.

There is nothing in either the rules or the codex to support this. The only relevant rule I can find is the one I quoted saying that independent characters canot leave the unit they joined during the assault phase.

liam0404 wrote:As the codex ssts, if he is successful with WBB, he stands up where he was lying, and fights on. If he doesn't rejoin a unit at this point, why Would he be considered to rejoin one in death? It makes no sense whatsoever.

It doesn't say he stands back up where he was lying. Read page 18 again. It says; "If they self repair, they will stand up with 1 Wound, not their full 3."

There is also the following;
A unit of Warriors includes a Necron Lord.
The lord and a number of warriors (but not all) are reduced to 0 wounds and await WBB.
The WBB rolls are made, the warriors pass a few, but the lord fails his WBB.
The Necron player now elects to have the unit, including the lord, phase out and re-emerge from a Monolith portal for another WBB roll.
Is this something you can do?
According to your argument, you can't. You can teleport the warriors, but not the lord since he stopped being part of the unit when he was reduced to 0 wounds.
Is that right?

@ time wizard, did you mean the downed warriors aren't removed?

@ liam0404, what time wizard is saying is correct that the lord is still attached as there are NO rules in the codex or FAQ that state otherwise, we then go by the IC rules in the BRB which states the IC is still part of the unit until he moves over 3" away in the 'movement phase'.

Userarm wrote:@ time wizard, did you mean the downed warriors aren't removed?

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse.
The downed warriors are still part of the original unit.
If the unit has to fall back, the downed models fall back with it (this according to the FAQ)
If they pass WBB they join the closest unit, the one they were originally a part of.
If they faill WBB and you have a monolith, they can port through the monolith with their unit and make another WBB roll.
If they are downed, and their unit gets caught in a sweeping advance, they are removed as well because they are still part of the original unit.

In the rulebook it states that models reduced to.0 wounds are removed as casualties. Doesn't that remove an IC from a unit? Until the necron players next turn, he is for all intents and purposes dead. I think that death is surely one way an IC can leave a unit....

liam0404 wrote:In the rulebook it states that models reduced to.0 wounds are removed as casualties.

In the Necron Codex it says that; "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it is damaged."{emphasis mine}
So the lord is not dead, and has not left the unit. He is damaged, and awaiting his chance at WBB, along with any other damaged members of his unit.

I see what you mean, however they are classed as debris as they were downed before the sweeping advance occurs, they only moved with the unit in the FAQ to represent what needed WBB rolls and not for any other reason, as per the necron codex under we'll be back ' Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only'.
A sweeping advance would in my opinion be included in that so if you catch the remaining warriors as per the example at the start of this thread, the Lord and other downed warriors do not get removed from play as they are debris only (essentially dead for gaming purposes), the WBB rolls would of been determined before hand when they were downed so they do get their WBB still.

Userarm wrote:A sweeping advance would in my opinion be included in that so if you catch the remaining warriors as per the example at the start of this thread, the Lord and other downed warriors do not get removed from play as they are debris only (essentially dead for gaming purposes), the WBB rolls would of been determined before hand when they were downed so they do get their WBB still.

They are debris but they are not 'dead' for gaming or any other purpose.
First, WBB rolls are only made at the start of the Necron turn.
Second, the FAQ backs up that downed Necrons that are in a unit that falls back are moved with the unit.
Sweeping advance only occurs to units that are falling back.
Sweeping advance does not destroy models, it destroys units.
In the case of the Necrons, WBB makes no difference for units that are caught by a sweeping advance. The entire unit is destroyed, including any models that are awaiting their WBB rolls.

I did quote the codex where it states downed Necron models are 'ignored completely for all normal game purposes', sweeping advance is a normal game purpose and in my opinion they would not be included in this.
The WBB rolls are made at the start of the Necron turn but they are checked to see if they get the WBB when they are downed to see if in range otherwise they are removed straight away.
The FAQ states 'to keep things simple move them with the unit, you will then know how many WBB to make' but the codex itself says they dont follow coherency as i quoted.
Even a single model is still classed as a unit so even if 9 out of 10 were downed and the last model failed an iniative test you are still destroying that unit as the other models would then join the closest unit of the same type
They were downed before sweeping advance, count as debris, completely ignored for normal game purposes so to me they would not be destroyed by the sweeping advance.

I don't think were going to agree to be honest!

Two valid interpretations = dice off.

You are still confusing 'models' and 'units'.
Look at page 21 Codex Necrons, the last paragraph on the page. The rule says if there are no reserves and a Necron unit (which it then specifies the Necron units) and a lord that has joined such a unit may phase out and re-emerge from a monolith portal. It then says; "Any models in the unit that, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll be back' roll at the start of the turn and were removed, may re-roll as they emerge from the portal."
So models that were removed are still part of the unit.
So is a lord that joined the unit.
Because the unit can phase out and then re-emerge from the monolith.
So they are all still one unit. Correct?
And if a falling back unit is caught in a sweeping advance, "The falling back unit is destroyed." (BRB page 40)
You can't say on the one hand that the downed necrons are all part of the same unit so they can teleport though the monolith for another WBB roll, and then on the other hand say that the downed necrons are only debris so they don't count as part of the unit.
The unit of necrons includes those still 'alive' and those that are down awaiting WBB.
If they are all down by other than a sweeping advance, and there is a like unit within 6", they can attempt WBB and those that pass will join the other unit.
The original unit counts for KP and even will give up a pain token to a dark eldar unit.
Nothing in the Necron codex or rules overrides how units work.

One squad, 2 units. There's a difference.

How else do you explain how an IC can be targeted in close combat, or why an IC can take no retreat wounds in combat, as well as his squad?

Because 2 UNITS are in the squad.

liam0404 wrote:How else do you explain how an IC can be targeted in close combat, or why an IC can take no retreat wounds in combat, as well as his squad?

The rules explain it.
BRB page 49 under 'Independent Characters & Assaults'; "If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit."
Seems pretty clear that the IC is part of the unit in close combat.
Next sentence; "When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit...even though they have joined the unit."
That is how and why an IC can be targetted in close combat.
And then the last sentence in the same paragraph; "Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined..."
A necron lord and the unit he has joined remain one unit until he leaves the unit in his movement phase, just the same as any other IC in the game.

Well personally I'm of the opinion that death detaches an IC from a unit. You can continue to play it incorrectly if you wish. Arguing that a dead IC is part of a unit is ridiculous.

So here's a question for you. Say a unit of sanguinary guard with a priest are charged by incubi or something. They target the priest at a higher initiative step and kill him. Do the sanguinary guard then get FNP at lower initiative steps? Of course not. But by your definition, he is still part of tge unit, and will therefore confer FNP, which makes no sense.

Or here's a necron related one for you. A lord with warriors is charged. The lord has a res orb. He is dropped at I5 attacks. Do warriors benefit from the orb at I4? Of course they don't, because the lord is dead.

How can you consider a dead IC to be part of a unit?.its not possible.

liam0404 wrote: Well personally I'm of the opinion that death detaches an IC from a unit. You can continue to play it incorrectly if you wish. Arguing that a dead IC is part of a unit is ridiculous.

While I respect your opinion, you are the one playing it incorrectly. I will agree that death detaches an IC from a unit. The attacker gains a KP. A dark eldar unit with PFP gains a pain token. When the IC is dead. A necron lord is not dead or destroyed until after he fails his WBB roll or he is killed by certain strength or power weapons in CC and he has no res orb.

liam0404 wrote:So here's a question for you. Say a unit of sanguinary guard with a priest are charged by incubi or something. They target the priest at a higher initiative step and kill him. Do the sanguinary guard then get FNP at lower initiative steps? Of course not. But by your definition, he is still part of tge unit, and will therefore confer FNP, which makes no sense.

Because the priest does not have a WBB rule. If the priest also has FNP, and passes the roll, he is still alive. If not, he is dead, destroyed, nothing can bring him back. Not so for Necron Lords! They have a special rule that keeps them from being removed at that point.

liam0404 wrote:Or here's a necron related one for you. A lord with warriors is charged. The lord has a res orb. He is dropped at I5 attacks. Do warriors benefit from the orb at I4? Of course they don't, because the lord is dead.

The lord is not dead at that point! He is damaged, awaiting WBB. The res orb does not work because he does not count for game purposes at that point, but he is still part of the unit like any other damaged Necron awaiting WBB.

liam0404 wrote:How can you consider a dead IC to be part of a unit?.its not possible.

A dead IC? Correct. A dead IC is removed from the tabletop, put away or thrown out, whatever you want to do with it. A damaged Necron Lord on the other hand, is left on his side awaiting WBB. He is still on the table. His Codex special rules say so.

Look at this is from the latest Dark Eldar FAQ:

Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain
token for destroying a model/unit with the ability to return
to play. For example a Necron with the Weʼll be Back
special rule. (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the
unit will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is
completely removed from play. In the case of a Necronunit,
a pain token will be generated once a unit has been
destroyed (even if some of its models have returned into
other nearby units).

Even this backs up that the necon lord is not destroyed (dead) until it is completely removed from play, which does not occur until it fails, or is ineligible to make, a WBB roll.

If you insist that just because the Lord is reduced to 0 wounds in CC that the Necon Lord is dead and leaves the unit, then he also leaves the table and is "completely destroyed" and cannot make a WBB roll. But this goes against the WBB special rule and is an incorrect way to play Necrons.

Firstly, FAQ on power from pain has no bearing on this debate whatsoever. That's how that rule works, not WBB.

Perhaps saying he is dead is a poor choice of words from me. However, you yourself state that he does not count for game purposes while downed.

Bearing this in mind, we now know the following:

The downed lord does not count as an enemy model, and cannot be targeted, assaulted or join with another unit.

He counts as debris/terrain while awaiting WBB.

He is ignored for ALL game purposes. He is a unit of 1, which cpunts as ignored until WBB tests are taken.

If he is ignored for all game purposes, then how can he be considered attached to ANY unit for that matter?

He can't, is the answer. So when tge sweeping advance finished the rest of the squad (which I agree with you on), the lord is not destroyed, because he counts as ignored.

Like I said before, I don't think we are going to agree...