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What is better for popping AV 12 transports?

Depends what's fielding it (BS) and it's relative points.

Generally however, I'd say Lascannons.

Like most things though, they excel when mixed together, one providing higher strength whilst the other provides superior RoF.

If you want to score a pen on a vehicle, then LasCannons are better. If any result at all is good enough, which will usually stop it from firing, then LasCannons still win, but not by nearly as much.

Of course, then you have to be willing to pay for the upgrade from one to the other. I usually look at it on a whole squad basis. So instead of seeing that the LasCannon upgrade costs 20 and the AutoCannon costs 10, I don't expect the LC to be twice as effective. It's more that a LC HWS costs 105, and an AC one costs 75. So I expect about a 40% increase in effectiveness. (In this case, there's more like a 25% increase in the likelihood of scoring a penetrating hit, but that doesn't count effectiveness against other things.)

Right, lascannons aren't more points-effective than autocannons in this role, but if points are tight, they are more raw effective per gun.

More importantly, the autocannon is really only decent against AV10, with being so-so at the absolute best against AV12. Meanwhile, the lascannons' decent against AV12, but it also snipes MCs, terminators and AV13+.

That you can do so much more with it well is undoubtedly the reason for the serious price hike.

AC vs AV 12
Destroyed or Exploded ~7.1%

LC vs AC 12
Destroyed or Exploded ~11.34%

These numbers change when your AC is TL, also on obscurement, etc.
Use this simulator to run the math for yourself.
http://www.simhammer.com/node/7


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Ailaros wrote:More importantly, the autocannon is really only decent against AV10, with being so-so at the absolute best against AV12

ACs can be ok vs AV 12 if they are TL. Take the rifleman dread, for example, it has a better chance of destroying AV 12 than a typhoon does. The TL on the AC push them over the non-TL of the krak missiles.

From an Eldar player perspective, I much rather face a LC than an AC, if the AC is twin-linked, which it usually is. Simply because LC is one shot. That one shot status is by default, very unreliable, no matter what the math says(in practice, shooting with one shot, it's all about luck, math has little to do with the end result - which is not to say it is irrelevant, just that it rarely follows statistics in my experience)

So because it is cheaper and if we're talking about SM here, will usually hit with both shots(4 in the case of riflemen dreads) I fear AC more than a LC.

Araenion wrote:From an Eldar player perspective

Well, yes, but eldar have vehicles which turn S9 weapons into S8 weapons. Of course eldar would rather come across those.

Araenion wrote:That one shot status is by default, very unreliable, no matter what the math says

You have a way of determining reliability other than with math?

labmouse42 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:More importantly, the autocannon is really only decent against AV10, with being so-so at the absolute best against AV12

ACs can be ok vs AV 12 if they are TL.

Well, yeah, anything gets better if you twin-link it. Really you should be comparing a TL autocannon to a TL lascannon.

Ailaros wrote:You have a way of determining reliability other than with math?

It's called Murphy's Law

I think what Araenion is trying to say is that when you fire a single shot the statistical average comes into play a lot less in any given situation. So relying on that single roll is more luck than math.
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I've yet to be able to justify to myself spending twice the PV for +2S and half the shots. As a Guard player you have access to a huge number of weapon systems that will crack AV12. Spending 20 points to add a BS3 Lascannon to a squad makes very little sense when you realize that you've got a 50% chance to hit and then a 50% chance to penetrate AV12 and another 50% to score permanent damage. Assuming he doesn't have, and make, his 50% chance to negate the whole thing. Then you need to consider how you use the squad itself. Shoot at a tank and the remaining 7-8 men do nothing, shoot at infantry and you have one fewer shots then if you didn't have the heavy weapon at all. Use an Autocannon and you'll actually be able to contribute the same number of shots against an infantry target that you'd have with all Lasguns. And against infantry more dice is almost always better.

So I'd rather have Autocannons in my infantry squads than Lascannons, both for going after enemy transports and general utility, assuming I put heavy weapons in my squads to begin with.

The breakpoint between the autocannon and lascannon is at AV11. Above that the lascannon clearly outperforms the autocannon. At 11 they're about the same depending on how you count. Neither one has a particularly good chance of killing a vehicle outright in a single shot. I mostly prefer lascannons because they can fill the autocannon's role, albeit inefficiently, and there are some things that you use a lascannon for that an autocannon can't do.

A few points...

First of all, it's rarely a direct either/or between LC and AC. LC cost more points, so you can buy other items when you but the AC

That being said, the AC shines on other targets as well, such as turbo boosting bikes. They both wound on a 2+, and the target gets a cover save. In those instances, doubling the shots is very effective.

Luckily it's not a absolute either/or in your army. It's all about the ratio of weapons you bring.

If you look at the two guns in a vacuum; purely comparing S, AP value and number of shots, the lascannon wins out. Its ability to hurt AV12 and 13, as well as 10-11, outshines the autocannon quite a lot.

However, when you take points value into consideration along with the BS of the firer, the lines become a bit more blurry. It's also very important to ascertain whether each gun in twin-linked or not. As you specifically state AV 12 transports in your OP I'm going to make the assumption you are fighting either IG or Eldar.

If the former, then lascannons are your best bet, but an even better bet would be to take advantage of the looooong, paper-thin side armour Chimeras have. If the latter, I would take missile launchers, as any gun that is greater than S8 vs Eldar tanks is automatically reduced anyway, so why waste the points so why waste the points on higher S guns?

L. Wrex

Wrex, actually vs AV 10 the AC wins out, even when not TL.

You can use the simulator in my sig to test it out

BS 3 AC vs armor 10: 2(1/2*1/2)= 1/2 to penetrate
vs armor 11: 2(1/2*1/3)= 1/3 to penetrate.
vs armor 12: 1/6 to penetrate

BS 3 Las vs armor 10 1/2*5/6= 5/12 to penetrate
vs armor 11 1/2*2/3 = 1/3 to penetrate
vs armor 12 1/2*1/2 = 1/4 to penetrate

if twin linked:
AC v 10= 3/4
v 11= 2(3/4*1/3)= 1/2
v 12= 2(3/4*1/6)=1/4

Las v 10= 3/4*5/6= 5/8
las v 11 = 3/4*2/3= 1/2
las v 12 = 3/4*1/2= 3/8


Bs 4 AC v 10 2(2/3*1/2)= 2/3
v 11 2(2/3*1/3) = 4/9
v 12 2(2/3*1/6)= 2/9

Bs 4 Las v 10 2/3*5/6= 5/9
v 11 2/3*2/3=4/9
v 12 2/3*1/2= 1/3


if twin linked:
Bs 4 AC v 10 2(8/9*1/2)=8/9
v 11 2(8/9*1/3)= 16/27
v 12 2(8/9*1/3)= 8/27

Bs 4 Las v 10 8/9*5/6= 20/27
v 11 8/9*2/3= 16/27
v 12 8/9*2/3= 12/27

Sooo... there's the math... obviously it will change depending on cover, and other factors that armies can include that will affect your shots, like the afore-mentioned eldar magicalness.

since I don't really know what the OP is choosing between, I don't really know how else to address the question. However, since they're asking how to kill armor 12, I would suggest auto, as the only two major fielders of AV 12 are, iirc, Eldar and imp guard. However as the eldar have something that reduces S9 to S8, and imperial guard side armor is notoriously weak (at least on the chimeras), I think you'll find the Auto cannon to be friendlier to you, especially if mounted on something that can move and shoot. If it's stationary, then Las might be better... but I'm not convinced.

Basically the auto cannon is considerably more versatile, and has a higher luck potential. I know that the ability to pen armor 14 is great, but you have a 4/27 chance to do that, even with Bs 4 and twin linking! Realistically, I think that your Las and AC weapons are best suited to horribly maiming light tanks, and the numbers show that they are equally versatile at killing these things. However, the meta tells you that there are a lot more av 10 and 11 vehicles out there than 12 (I believe)

My response is take both. They are both good at what they do, and can share duty against the AV11-12.

My question is one that hasn't been asked ... Which armies fielding them?

Is we're talking about Space marines with ....
...a predator it would be auto cannon and lascannon sponsons.
...a dread dual auto cannons

Is we're talking about imperial guard with ...
...infantry auto cannon
...Lascannons you want the vendetta

as a DE player...
I fear Autocannons


obviously LC are overkill against cardboard boxes

Lord PoPo wrote:Basically the auto cannon is considerably more versatile

The rest of the math is nice, but I've got to go out of my way to seriously disagree with this part. Lascannons are WAY more versatile than autocannons.

In order to be versatile, you've got to have a wider range of targets WHICH YOU CAN ENGAGE EFFECTIVELY. That autocannon is junk against infantry of any type, and vehicles of AV12 or better, and MCs. That's a pretty narrow list of things it can handle effectively. The lascannon, on the other hand, is useful against MCs, AV10+, and terminators, giving it a pretty wide range of stuff that it can target and destroy.

Ailaros wrote:
In order to be versatile, you've got to have a wider range of targets WHICH YOU CAN ENGAGE EFFECTIVELY. That autocannon is junk against infantry of any type, and vehicles of AV12 or better, and MCs. That's a pretty narrow list of things it can handle effectively. The lascannon, on the other hand, is useful against MCs, AV10+, and terminators, giving it a pretty wide range of stuff that it can target and destroy.

Whoa now, let's watch the crazy talk here. I'm still a little leery of the insane autocannon fans, but to say the autocannon is junk against infantry of any type is a bit overkill. The autocannon is better against anything with a 4+ save or worse, and it's better against any infantry in cover (except +2 save stuff). The autocannon is more effective against a different range of targets, medium/light infantry and light armor. Player spam it because it's cheap, and other means (melta) are available to deal with threats that autocannons can't field (AV 13/14). As things like hydras and lootas show, enough cheap STR 7 shots can kill just about anything.

notabot187 wrote:My response is take both. They are both good at what they do, and can share duty against the AV11-12.

+1

Sorry, I didn't really mean versatile, I simply meant that it is better against armor 10 and as good against armor 11, which are the two most common armor types in mech armies save guard and eldar. I couldn't find the page for the eldar vehicle upgrade that you mentioned... but if what i can infer is correct then vs eldar Las will help you less than auto cannons would.

Also, there are plenty of squadrons of AV 10, but much fewer of av 12. The twin shots means that you have a slight chance of taking out two units with one burst, while no such opportunity exists for the Las cannon.

As for MC units, I completely forgot about those. Against 4+ save nids, the auto cannon still wins out... but against the ones that you'd most likely want to kill the Las is a better choice.

All in all, when remembering the MCs (I would just like to say in my defense that it is very easy to forget multi-ton bugs that want to eat your face... yeah... ), the las cannon comes out ahead in my book. But I don't really think that the cost is justified... I would still take a few in just about any list, and as many as I can get too provided the cost is reasonable. In IG, where the Las costs a mere 10 points extra in most cases, I would definitely look at fielding a good portion of my heavy weapons as Las.

In space marine armies, where on dreads you pay 20 points extra and on Preads... *cringe* 45 points, It's not really worth it imho.

as for CSM.. I don't know... I've never played them and the last time I did was way back in 4th edition.

Grimaldi wrote: to say the autocannon is junk against infantry of any type is a bit overkill.

Well, what infantry is it good against? Clearly not Sv3+ or better, as the chances of you killing even a single model per round of shooting are very low. Meanwhile, at only 2 shots apiece, just how much do you think it's going to clean out hordes? The only time the autocannon is really worth taking is against really high toughness stuff with really terrible armor saves that are too large to gain cover saves.

That's not a long list.

I don't think he's saying that it's great against infantry, just that it's not as bad as a Las cannon... provided that you aren't shooting at 3+ or 2+

Tbh, considering how many tanks there are in the game these days though.. I don't see many times where you would be best off firing the AC at infantry units as opposed to their transports.

There are some tyranid MC's/biggish but not quite so big as MC's that are save 4+ iirc... not sure about that though..

Cover negates the AP benefit of lascannons for the most part. It does still come in handy for instakilling T4 and/or negating FNP.

Ailaros wrote:

Grimaldi wrote: to say the autocannon is junk against infantry of any type is a bit overkill.

Well, what infantry is it good against? Clearly not Sv3+ or better, as the chances of you killing even a single model per round of shooting are very low. Meanwhile, at only 2 shots apiece, just how much do you think it's going to clean out hordes? The only time the autocannon is really worth taking is against really high toughness stuff with really terrible armor saves that are too large to gain cover saves.

That's not a long list.

Nob Bikers.

alexwars1 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Grimaldi wrote: to say the autocannon is junk against infantry of any type is a bit overkill.

Well, what infantry is it good against? Clearly not Sv3+ or better, as the chances of you killing even a single model per round of shooting are very low. Meanwhile, at only 2 shots apiece, just how much do you think it's going to clean out hordes? The only time the autocannon is really worth taking is against really high toughness stuff with really terrible armor saves that are too large to gain cover saves.

That's not a long list.

Nob Bikers.

Er...

Won't Las ID nob bikers..?

Terminus wrote:Cover negates the AP benefit of lascannons for the most part. It does still come in handy for instakilling T4 and/or negating FNP.

I'd rather my opponent have a 4+ cover instead of a 2+ or 3+ armor any day, especially if they've got fortune.

If a LasCannon is firing at anything that can get cover, it's either ineffective to begin with (regular and medium infantry), or it's firing at something with 2+ or T4 and multple wounds. (Broadsides, Terminators, Obliterators, Suits) [I played Tau and CSM today, can you tell?] In all of these cases, an Autocannon would only be good if it were spammed a lot more than their points ratio. What I'm saying is that cover doesn't discourage me from preferring the LasCannon, or feeling like it's advantage gets negated.

Man, if an AutoCannon had just one point better on AP. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alexwars1 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Grimaldi wrote: to say the autocannon is junk against infantry of any type is a bit overkill.

Well, what infantry is it good against? Clearly not Sv3+ or better, as the chances of you killing even a single model per round of shooting are very low. Meanwhile, at only 2 shots apiece, just how much do you think it's going to clean out hordes? The only time the autocannon is really worth taking is against really high toughness stuff with really terrible armor saves that are too large to gain cover saves.

That's not a long list.

Nob Bikers.

Harpies! There's a reason my brother-in-law only ran them once. . .

But yeah, even with examples, it's not a huge list of things with Toughness that the AC is "super amazing" against.

Regarding Eldar vehicles - the upgrade posters have mentioned is Wave Serpent Energy field, which says that every weapon whose S is greater than 8 reduces it to 8 instead. It also protects them(relatively) against meltas, rending and ordnance. Only Wave Serpents have that, though.

Thing is, I'm not sure just what the point cost of LC vs AC is, but I'm pretty sure you could take 2 AC for the cost of 1 LC. So from where I'm standing, I just can't realistically compare one LC against one AC.

As another plus on AC side, I believe a TL AC has greater chance at pen'ing an AV 12 than an ML. I can't think of the percentage off the top of my head, though.

However, one thing to consider with LC vs AC debate is range. On an infantry unit that isn't relentless, if I was to give it an AT role, I'd take LC simply because with 36" of the AC, stuff you want to shoot at are able to maneuver out of range of a stationary unit. And this unit won't ever get to shoot at the sides of a Chimera or Vindicator, unless my opponent makes a mistake, so a LC here is a safer bet. On a fast unit, or one that can outflank, Assault cannons, Autocannons, Scatterlasers and Multilasers are a no-brainer.

shealyr wrote:

Ailaros wrote:You have a way of determining reliability other than with math?

It's called Murphy's Law

Aint that the truth

Araenion wrote:Thing is, I'm not sure just what the point cost of LC vs AC is, but I'm pretty sure you could take 2 AC for the cost of 1 LC. So from where I'm standing, I just can't realistically compare one LC against one AC.

The upgrade cost in infantry squads is like that but that doesn't literally translate to two autocannons vs one lascannon. You pay for the unit too so it's more like seven autocannon squads vs six lascannon. Heavy weapons squads are the most point-favorable unit for cheap heavy weapons, 75 points for three autocannons vs 105 for lascannons, making the lascannons 1.4 times as expensive as autocannons. It's less misleading to think of an autocannon and ten points vs a lascannon than to think of two autocannons vs one lascannon.

As another plus on AC side, I believe a TL AC has greater chance at pen'ing an AV 12 than an ML. I can't think of the percentage off the top of my head, though.

3/4*1/6 per shot on the autocannon. A krak missile has whatever you need to hit times one third of hits penetrate. Are we twin-linking the missile too? Each missile hit is twice as likely to penetrate than an autocannon hit while the autocannon has twice as many shots as a missile launcher.

However, one thing to consider with LC vs AC debate is range. On an infantry unit that isn't relentless, if I was to give it an AT role, I'd take LC simply because with 36" of the AC, stuff you want to shoot at are able to maneuver out of range of a stationary unit. And this unit won't ever get to shoot at the sides of a Chimera or Vindicator, unless my opponent makes a mistake, so a LC here is a safer bet. On a fast unit, or one that can outflank, Assault cannons, Autocannons, Scatterlasers and Multilasers are a no-brainer.

Both lascannons and autocannons are 48".