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Hey guys, i'm starting a flames of war late war german army, and i just made my own Schwere Panzerregiment Bake list. It's got everything i want in it, but i'm not sure if it is a good list or not. Please can you guys check it out and tell me if it is good or not and maybe suggest some other options? Thanks. I want a more armoured division list, for about 1750 points. Currently it is at about 1695.


HQ

Company HQ with 2x Panther A tanks: 380

1x Bergepanther recovery vehicle: 15

Combat Platoons

3x Panther A tanks: 560

2x Tiger I E tanks: 430

Support Platoons

Schwere Panzer Armoured Scout Platoon

1x Command MG team with SD Kfz 251/1c Half-track with:

6x Scout squads: 6 MG Teams with 6 SD Kfz 251/1c Half-tracks: 310 Points

Points: 1695

Thanks

It depends largely on what you plan on facing, but for late war, while Tiger Es were still rather stout tanks. Their cost does not give you much bang for your buck. You might think about dropping the Bergpanther Recovery & the two Tigers and taking a King Tiger + support if points allow. AA Gun tracks wouldnt be a bad addition to protect against air and it would give you some additional mobile Anti-Infantry if you feel you might need it. Also the King Tiger can take the punishment as well as dish it out and it still gives you the Tiger Ace roll.

Again, not sure what you will be facing, but Tigers wont do very much again some of the Late war Soviet Armor. However, if you are facing lots of Allied Armor, then regular tigers are a good fit. You will just need to be cautious with your Panthers and protect their Flanks!

Of course, dont know if you are going for a more Historical driven force or what. Just my two cents!

cheers for replying

firstly, in the list i'm using, you cant take king tigers . i stuck in the bergpanther because it was only 15 points, but i'm a lil bit undecided about that. as for the aa guns, i didn't have enough points left over as i needed some infantry. i'll look over the list and consider what you said./ thanks

My suggestion would be to drop the Scout Platoon, and pick up a Gebirgsjaeger platoon, and some Nebelwerfers. The Gebirgsjaegers will give you some stout infantry to guard your own objective/hunker down, and the 'werfers are good for smoking enemy platoons. I don't recall off the top of my head what kind of access you will have to AA guns, but I'd recommend some because heavy tanks are very susceptible to air attacks.

Thanks for the suggestion. by the way, when they say squads, in a box set, would that be one base or one box set?

The Bergpanther is only 15pts yes, so it would be hard to spend that on something else. The Panthers and Tigers I believe both have the Wide Tracks Feature, so it is rather unlikely that they will be getting stuck in difficult terrian.

But this also depends on what you can expect terrain wise. If you expect open terrain with trees, hills, and ditches you will be safe, but if you are talking about cluttered battlefields with urban terrain and plan on crashing through buildings. Bergpanther support might not be to terrible an idea. Ive never really used one and have never really needed them.

FallenAngel wrote:Thanks for the suggestion. by the way, when they say squads, in a box set, would that be one base or one box set?

I'm a little unclear on what you're referring to, but I think this is it. When you purchase a platoon it should have a diagram showing the platoon organization, and by squad they're referring to each individual group. For example, in the Schwere Panzerregiment Bäke briefing you have the Gebirgsjaegers, and they come stock with 2 squads of two stands each. You can buy 3 squads, which would give you an additional two stands. It varies from platoon to platoon, but you could find the information in the relevant briefing.

Hope that answers your question.

@Comintern: Cheers for the feed-back. Myself and my brother are both starting the game together, and thinking of getting terrain. we're not sure what type of terrain to get yet, but I will consider it for the tanks.

@IAmTheWalrus: once again thank you. I thought long and hard over what I asked, then I realised that the teams are the stands. Thanks for your feed-back.

Yeah, a Bergpanther is one of those things when reading through you are like "Yes, I want something to help me if I get my tanks stuck" but then, you will find that you hardly need it, and unless it is trailing right behind the tanks, you will find it might not be in a position to help them immediately or even in a timely fashion.


As for Terrain, Hill's work out the same for any scale! but here is a PDF about trees. Me and my friend are creating for stands of them now and will be posting pictures of how they turn out.

http://www.architectsofwar.com/Howto/forests.pdf

He also has one for making Roads! Very cool stuff.

I've decided to make an all armoured list instead. I'm going bigger then 1750 points, so i can have more fun. but in this list, i won't be taking the Bergpanther. Like you said, looks like it can help, but i suppose it may be easy pickings in battle. thanks for the pdf; will look at it in a minute. I wanted to add infantry in my army because i thought you needed infantry to try and take objectives. But that is the 40k rules right. I'll post my new list once i've finalised it.

Thanks again.

FallenAngel wrote:I've decided to make an all armoured list instead. I'm going bigger then 1750 points, so i can have more fun. but in this list, i won't be taking the Bergpanther. Like you said, looks like it can help, but i suppose it may be easy pickings in battle. thanks for the pdf; will look at it in a minute. I wanted to add infantry in my army because i thought you needed infantry to try and take objectives. But that is the 40k rules right. I'll post my new list once i've finalised it.

Thanks again.

I run a US 3rd Armored company without an infantry, gun or trasnport team in sight and it does well enough. The more aggressively you can push opponents the less relevant leaving things to hold your objectives. In general, though, the company motivation is almost always easier. If you run armor heavy, just isolate and single out individual platoons for special attention and work your way through them until you get to the motivation, then start hunting the company command. Then again, a company running 25 tanks all with stabilisers and 3 mgs a piece is a little better suited to that type of running and gunning approach.

Thanks for replying. I see what you mean. Like i said before, i thought you needed infantry for objectives. But that was in 40k. So yeah, i've now got my armour list, and it's got some quad AA in their to stop those planes taking out my tanks.

yeah, unlike 40k, anything unit can hold an objective or contest it. You are not required to field Infantry if you do not want to. And any Tank company list for the different nations can pretty much field all tanks and support without a single infantryman in sight.

Comintern wrote:yeah, unlike 40k, anything unit can hold an objective or contest it. You are not required to field Infantry if you do not want to. And any Tank company list for the different nations can pretty much field all tanks and support without a single infantryman in sight.

So utterly unlike WW2 then...

Didnt Say its was realistic Big P, just stating a rule difference.

Furthermore, I dont recall reading about Infantry support on Wittman's assault on the Desert rats.

That's what I hate about 40k. have to have infantry

HQ

Command Tank Panther A: 190 Points

2iC Tank Panther A: 190 Points

Combat Platoons

Panther A Platoon (4 tanks): 750 Points

Panther A Platoon (4 tanks): 750 Points

Tiger I E Tank Platoon (2 Tanks): 430 Points

Weapons Platoon

3 Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm)(Upgraded with 0 armour): 165 Points

Total Points: 2475

This is my armoured list for a 2500 point game.

All I can say is keep at Range and protect your Flanks! You will find that Panthers are great head on, but as soon as their flanks are exposed or open to fire they are no better then shermans defensively.

However, you might think about dropping the 2 tigers and going with a King Tiger. For late war, they pack a hell of a punch and are the toughest tank you can field.
That should also free up a hundred or so more points for you to add something else. Additional Support. Nebelwerfer Battery wouldnt be bad!

Thanks for reviewing it! Firstly, with the tigers, there isn't an option for a king tiger, but would you be able to take them if you make a kumpfragge (sorry can't remember the spelling). I'm not sure what it is, and don't know if that's where you get the Kings from.

On the NW41s, i wanted to keep it solidly armoured tank. i might think about getting them if i get some extra dosh, they aren't bad looking sets lol.

FallenAngel wrote:Thanks for reviewing it! Firstly, with the tigers, there isn't an option for a king tiger, but would you be able to take them if you make a kumpfragge (sorry can't remember the spelling). I'm not sure what it is, and don't know if that's where you get the Kings from.

On the NW41s, i wanted to keep it solidly armoured tank. i might think about getting them if i get some extra dosh, they aren't bad looking sets lol.

I tried getting my LGS to order a NW41 blister and BF said that they were sold out and didn't forsee any being made for at least 6 weeks? Maybe it's getting a redesign? Not sure but it seems odd.

Bake doesnt have access to Divisional Support?

Explain to me please. (remember i'm new lol)

okay, most lists and armies have their core units they are allowed to use.

Combat Platoons, Weapon Platoons, Support Platoons.

Ontop of these, stated in their write up of what you are allowed to bring, there is Divisional Support. And one of the options in Divisional Support is Heavy Tank. Which depending which phase of the war you are playing, extends to Tigers, King Tigers, and I believe Radio Control Tigers. This last one is effective a Tiger Tank + A goliath demo crawler. However, you dont get Tiger Ace with these.

If Bake's List has access to Divisional Support, you would have access to additional German Troops!

Ok sweet. i looked over the bake pdf and couldn't find divisional support. thanks for explaining it to me!

I purchased 2 AA half tracks on the week-end, hoping to get some pics up after i have completed both of them.

Sorry to be so late commenting on this, but I have to proclaim my mantra of ‘Play some games’. Flames of War is one of those games where it is really handy to have a combined arms approach. However, my usual Russian opponent never brings Air, and my usual German opponent never brings anything heavier than a Mk IV. So while it is possible to build lists just for use against your regular opponents, those same lists might have serious short comings when you face some one new. The best thing to do is play some games and figure out what you like best. I suggest some 1500 point matches.
Most FOW players would consider a 2500 point per side battle to be a big game and your 2500 point list is very small. At 2500 points, you will probably have to leave some guys back to cover the objectives. I say that because at 2500 points, most other armies (that are not super-elite tank groups) are going to have stuff scurrying around all over the board. What if that objective is behind some trees? If you sit on it with tanks, they can not see anything to shot. If you use the AA trucks, then there is a chance something mediocre like some armored cars can come over and blow them off of it.
As to the King Tiger, yes it is a beast. But against my usual British Armour list, that is a large amount of points spent on overkill. Bear in mind there is more than one way to deal with a big tank. Hit it with airplanes, shell it with artillery, or cover it with smoke so it can only shoot out to 6 inches.
As to those that say Flames of War is not historical; I say they are right. Instead they should call Flames of War a very good game that just happens to use WWII miniatures.
Cheers!

yeah but with any list including super heavy tank list, some of the rules in FOW are broken and and easily abused. AOP spotting on tanks in woods. British Artillery rules and and my favorite semi-indirect fire, or even moving at the double allowing guns to magically fire twice as fast???? prevent list that can use armor to punch through objectives, or fast moving infantry list to be null and void. I have been playing as many games as possible at the local store and find that there are some serious shortcoming in the game..that are exploited. the heavy tank list were designed to punch holes in the lines as a spearhead, and allow other units to exploit it. It seems that FOW punishes that kind of play...the ambush rules are also broken...

Hey dreager96,
From your email I can not tell if you want someone to talk you back into FOW or need someone to suggest another game system you might like better.
As a general response, I will say that I enjoy Flames of War and, for me, the fun outweighs the rules inequities. Every rules system has a certain amount of quirks, so it is a matter of personal preference I suppose. I try not to nit pick about the rationale for each rule. I just suspend my disbelief and hope the odd things are in the rules for game balance. Since FOW is not in a fantasy setting, there is an understandable tendency to look at individual actions during the turn. But I find it more worthwhile to look at the final results of those actions at the end of the turn. For instance, no, the guns did not magically fire twice as fast, that represents the likelihood that troops not using cover would be hit more often.
Some of your references make me think you would rather have a game on the battalion (or higher) level. At that level, you COULD form a heavy tank group and punch through enemy lines. The way FOW is set up, if two fellows are facing off with lists built with the same amount of points, those heavy tanks are still awesome, but outnumbered.
The real reason I am replying is because of the Ambush Rules. Broken? I will let the masses decide that. I have not heard of a way I like better. In my case, I think there is nothing more exciting than pushing a troop of Shermans across the center bridge and wondering when and where the PaK40s will appear.

its not that I dont think the game has merrit, I do like the theme. I love making and painting the models, but game play some times suffers I think because the rational behind some of the rules makes no sense. I know they did it for game play. But take for instance an ambush team may deploy within 4" of an enemy team if in concealed terrain. It does not state that recon teams negate that. also...if you have a platoon that literally just walked over that ground then how can they just pop up. Yes I am a Vet and think its cheesy. also fire and maneuver??? How can a rate of fire 1 weapon fire twice, cause guys are running which makes them a harder target to it. and fire and maneuver is teams moving rapidly to to engage targets. I might by way of their explanation see them being easier to hit, but doubling the fire rate...it defeats the concept of the modern warfare...Blitzkrieg???

The FoW rules are somewhat abstracted. At a certain point this is true of all rulesets: Most leave out some minor details, or you'd need to know the wind for each shot, each firer's blood sugar level, etc. Too detailed and the game would bog down a lot.

As to your specific complaint I can't really defend the whole ambush thing, but for the fire and maneuver: Blitzkrieg as a concept is more at a strategic level, FoW is more played at a tactical level.

Also, shouldn't this be in a different thread?