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To begin with, I like the space wolves codex. I don't personally play them, but the feel of the codex in general is good, and despite the whole 'wolves riding wolves' thing, the majority of the codex, IMHO, plays true to how Space Wolves should function and feel. On the whole, the codex is good, if a little over the top in terms of general killiness.
But that's all okay, because so are Imperial Guard and Blood Angels; no two armies have identical codices; one player will always be using a 'better' codex; luck and tactics will come into play. What I don't like, is when a unit is taken as an absolute no-brainer.
Enter Long Fangs.

As every 40k player knows, Long Fangs are really good. They are under-priced, but they aren't quite good enough to break the game.They fit near-perfectly into the current (vehicle-heavy) metagame, and consequently, players take them.
Every single space wolf player
Every single time. Without fail.
I'm sure they exist, but I have never seen a list without 3x long fangs. And it makes me sad.

Maybe I'm a whinger, and I'm jaded, or whatever, but I would really like to see a space wolf list that doesn't pack 3 units of long fangs. Like I said, I'm not a Space Wolf player, but Space Wolves definitely have other viable heavy support choices! I just find it silly when people don't even consider other options...
Which is my reason for this thread. I am not here to whinge; I want to promote positive thought. So I ask Space Wolf players; explore alternatives. Are Long Fangs really, hands-down, the best heavy support choice avalaible? Baby steps first; try taking long fangs without 5x missile launchers; try lascannons or whatever, just consider other options! There is a whole heavy support section, you don't have to take just long fangs...

So basically the purpose of this thread is to promote thought. I would love to hear long fang alternatives. If anyone has had positive experience with other heavy support choices, please share, I would love to get others thinking; hopefully breaking the mold.
Remember, just because the internet says it is good, it doesn't mean you need to spam it. There are alternatives to long fangs.

Hoping for a more imaginative future,
Gutrip

In a competitive setting, you use the units that are most likely to perform well. Long fangs are the best heavy slot available to space wolves.

Yes there are other units that can do well, but none of them do as good as long fangs.

You can play imaginative, and use other heavies, but you would be gimping yourself.

This applies only to the major competitive tournaments. In casual games, I'm all for fun units and alternative play styles.

long fangs, predator, whirlwind, vindicator and landraiders ...

one wolf guard pack can take a LR so thats normally how they are use/taken ...

predator ... gets you 3 guns for min 85pts ... which all fire at the same target (note 120 is the min if you go for good sponsons)

whirlwind ... ok can ignore cover at range but not a great buy

vindicator ... short range

Long fangs for 140pts can take 5 missile launchers and fire at different targets, with full (or close to) board coverage. Ok they die to anti infantry fire but my god they can pump out a lot of dakka.

How is this tactics? The OP is just beating a dead horse....

I play Space Wolves and orks. And I have to say that I don't run Wolves like other people do. I rarely if ever use long fangs. I don't have very many of them and I like to try and use what I do have in terms of models. Most of the time I run mech heavy armies. So no infantry start on the table. Here is a sample list that has been working very well.

1250 Space Wolves

HQ
Rune Priest – murderous hurricane, living lighting, meltabomb -

Troops
8x Grey Hunters – meltagun, mark of the wolfin, wolf standard, rhino –
9x Grey Hunters – meltagun, mark of the wolfin, wolf standard, rhino –
5x Grey Hunters – flamer, razorback w/ tl lascannon–

Elites
3x Wolf Guard – 3x powerfists, 3x combi-meltas - (split up to be pack leaders, one goes with the wolf scouts)
Dreadnought – assault cannon, heavy flamer –
5x Wolf Scouts – meltagun -

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Typhoon –
Land Speeder – multi-melta, heavy flamer –

Heavy Support
Predator – autocannon, las cannon sponsoons -

As you can see I have no long fangs and I don't think I need them. The scouts do the BEL thing and make a mess of stuff. Is this what you are looking for Warboss Gutrip?

Are we talking just any long fang set up, or is it the 5x missile launchers?
If its just the missile launchers you see, Im impressed so many players go trough the troubble of getting all those launchers.

I got vindicator predator and LF, usually dont fill out my heavy support anyway. When I use the LF, they usually get a cross-section of the devastator weapons to make use of the divided fire in a multitask way rather than multi kill. Ofcourse, Im not very competetive and mostly loose my games
I really like to have a mobile las cannon platform (predator) that can act as a shield for beastly units, but two razor backs would do just as fine, and could be loaded with frenzied space vikings.
Thing with the long fangs is they fill out a part of the army that is othervise hard to find in the codex; range and flexibilty.

I can list you plenty of space wolf armies that only run two units of long fangs...

But I can tell you right now you aren't going to like them. Because they are "wolfstar" armies. Armies chock full of apparently the only unit you hate more than long fangs

If we are talking competitive.... then space wolves have thunderwolf cav and or long fangs. Because it is their power unit(s).

If we are talking non-competitive casual, then there is no limit to what they can and can not take. But I would advise if you like competitive play but the aesthetic of wolves on wolves or old men with missile launchers bothers you (this is a valid opinion to have)... Then I would stay away from space wolves as an army.

I think it is important to make a distinction which of the posters are tournament players and which are not.

Any Spacewolf tournament player is going to scoff at this thread.

Folks who don't play competitively are willing to run other things.

What's the phrase...."If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I used to fear Spacewolves, but list changes have made me able to literally kill two to two and a half squads of them in a single turn of shooting (says mathhammer). I have less anti-tank than I used to, and proportionately fear Mech IG more now, but my games against Space Wolves have been very successful in simply wiping them out of existence by turn2 at the latest (unless I reserve, in which case its turn3 before they are gone).

Dash: That seems like pretty high numbers versus any MEQ- especially in transports. What are you sporting? I know you have been bringing the DE, but in my experience, SWs packing a bunch of MLs and GHs can be a very tough nut for DE unless they can get on top of them with undepleted wych squads (not so easy when missiles and lucky bolters murder transports and bolters/flamers mop up the infantry).

I use 3 Vindicators... couldn't be arsed to find 15 missile launchers.

Dashofpepper wrote:

What's the phrase...."If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I used to fear Spacewolves, but list changes have made me able to literally kill two to two and a half squads of them in a single turn of shooting (says mathhammer). I have less anti-tank than I used to, and proportionately fear Mech IG more now, but my games against Space Wolves have been very successful in simply wiping them out of existence by turn2 at the latest (unless I reserve, in which case its turn3 before they are gone).

So you're playing against competitive armies that use long fangs and thunder cav, and you kill them off turn two?

Or do you play against other lists that field other things and kill them in turn two? Either way, a description of what you kill what with and how you kill it, would be a nice piece of testimony for this thread, whether it helps those trying to find alternatives, or reinforces the idea of Wolf/fang spam

Venoms. 4 wounds per turn per Venom, on any infantry. If you have a 5-man squad, you'd need 15 wounds to kill it. Say 36 wounds for 2 and a half squads. That's 9 Venoms.

Dash, are you running 9 Venoms?

@ Warboss Brokentoof;
That's exactly what I'm talking about. What you have there is still undoubtedly a good list; I am trying to get people to consider that Long Fang spam isn't the only choice.

@ Shep;
I really don't hate TWC. I think they're a little silly fluff-wise, but at least there are 'competetive' armies without them. Please note; TWC aren't a no-brainer, but Long Fangs are.

Like I said, I don't want to complain, I want to get people thinking. There is a whole heavy section, not just one choice...

@ Hesperus; I am fairly sure dash does run 9 venoms... 3x Trueborn, 6x warriors...
Scary, if a little spammy...

Lord PoPo wrote:So you're playing against competitive armies that use long fangs and thunder cav, and you kill them off turn two?

Or do you play against other lists that field other things and kill them in turn two? Either way, a description of what you kill what with and how you kill it, would be a nice piece of testimony for this thread, whether it helps those trying to find alternatives, or reinforces the idea of Wolf/fang spam

I think he meant the long fangs off the table only LOL.
He mentioned math, and by math or logic or his battle report, you know he mostly will not table his opponents by turn 2 or 3.

If it is the best unit, why would competative players take something else? Seems like the fact that they are strictly better than the other options is what's leading to the abundence.

Are you asking for a brainstorming session on ideas to justify the other choices are being more competative than long fangs?

If so.... I got nothing. Maybe vindicators if you need some more armor saturation and you are all mech... but that isn't most SW armies. I think most times Long Fangs are best, and that's why most people take them.

-Myst

I think you would have better luck trying to convince a Nid player to take minimal synapse units, or a Deathwing player to only use AC/PF


EDIT: I mean in a tourney, in a friendly match I'll do whatever strikes me as fun/funny