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I am running 2 squads of vets w/ 3 meltas in vendettas. They work fine, though I find that in many situations they jump out, destroy what they need to then end up quite vulnerable in my opponents next turn. In most cases, they end up lasting one or two rounds if Im lucky once out of their transport.

This works for me, however I have seen enough lists where these vets are upgraded to grenadiers and am curious how to use this effectively. Certainly, they are great in an alpha strike situation, but only half the time does one get first turn and even then, against an opponent that knows what hes doing, the impact of the alpha strike is minimized.

So I already find my vets quite fragile, but 3 meltas for 100 pts is alright. Now spending the extra points to make them a higher priority target while they stand around seems difficult to justify especially since they cannot charge the same turn they disembark anyway. The question is how are such units used effectively? Is there something Im missing?

Thanks

I like you don't find the trade off worthwhile. You are effectively paying a 30% increase in points for a slightly better save. Sure it makes it so you save 50% of the time you are forced to take a save, but on a T3 model it to me is not justified. Getting 2 squads outfitted with them is enough points to almost get another squad. Sure it does not have specials but you could run them infront of your vets and give the ones with the special weapons a 4+ cover save. Not that I recommend that.

At the end of the day to me guard are expendable, if you are looking for ways to make them last you are playing the wrong army IMHO.

As long as you kill over 100 points of something with the melta before they all die, then job done ...

DakkaDakka wrote:

Fact is, grenadiers ain't worth it. I remember under the older IG dex you could give squads carapace for 20 pts, and it wasn't worth it then! (to be fair, partly because you had to apply it to every unit in the army at the same price, even for 5- and 6-man squads)

But it also gives you a save against the vast majority of small arms fire. I rather like the additional survivability, as opposed to treating your force as totally expendable

Yeah. If you had an option (similar to the old codex) to apply it across the whole army, at +20 points for a 10-man squad, and +10 points for a 5-6 man squad, then I think I'd take it. But 30 points is just too much.

Another great benefit I just recalled about the 4+ save is that it lets you jump into combat with half a chance of surviving. Obviously this doesn't work with dedicated combat units, but its a handy thing against enemy line units.

While this is rather list specific, Id rather spend the 60 pts to give my 2 medusa squadron camo netting. While I am a proponent of keeping my sh** as cheap as possible in the interest of more firepower for IG, I think the survivability is better suited for the medusas.

Flinty wrote:Another great benefit I just recalled about the 4+ save is that it lets you jump into combat with half a chance of surviving. Obviously this doesn't work with dedicated combat units, but its a handy thing against enemy line units.

But . . . the only thing that makes the 4+ save worth much over the 5+ is that so many basic weapons are AP5. In combat, where weapons are essentially AP2 or AP-, the difference is far more marginal!

I had my opponent last week use a command squad with straken, some bodyguards and priest. That squad (which had a medipack) might be a good spot for carapace armour, because together they stop so much small arms fire. A standard veteran squad . . . not so much.

What about on plasma vet squads? I kinda like not having half of the buggers die in the first volley.

I'm usually vocal in saying that doctrines aren't worth the points. For now, I still stand by that.

That said, it's really, really, really annoying when most small arms (except ours) are AP 5. When you get Carapace, you don't upgrade by 1/6, you actually upgrade by 1/2 a lot of time.

Of course, cover is free. . .

Plasma vets? Someone's a masochist there...
I'm a bigger fan of forward sentries, but my vets hide in cover and use a lascannon to blow up enemy vehicles.
For what your using, I'd just run them bare.
A recent opponent regretted spending points on all his vets for a 4+ save. My sternguard quickly rapid fired in with kraken bolts and leveled them all. Really for 30 points you can buy so much more in other areas.
Now for static squads in cover I find the 30 points worth it for a 3+ cover save and stopping several attacks from an assault. Currently I'm not using chimeras or vendettas. I run my infantry as a screen in front of heavy artillery and mix in heavy weapons. So far it's been pretty good, but none of my opponents really have any outflankers, so it works. I don't need mech guard types in my area.

EmilCrane wrote:What about on plasma vet squads? I kinda like not having half of the buggers die in the first volley.

Again, that's a very marginal upgrade. A grenadier has a 1/12 chance of dying per plasmagun shot. A normal vet has a 1/9 chance. Not worth it for 30 points per squad.

You have to figure in streaking as well as the average roll. There's a decent chance to take ten wounds and only block one of them at 1/3rd (only 2 and a half rolls off the average) , at 1/2 such long streaks don't occur as often.