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In honor of Lord Solar Awesomes thread I want to ask what you guys think of the Galactic threat of Necrons. Do you guys think that they will end up enslaving the universe (again) or do you guys think they will be held back by their old codex .

Well, as we all know, Necrons will soon lose the ability to ressurect and will become weak pale imitations or human beings which are fodder for the mighty Spesh Mahrens bolters. So there is no real threat.

I'll confess to knowing much less about necrons than I ought, so for clarification, what would the scale of the ressurection be? For example, are there a limited supply of necrons? Can they make any more than are currently sleeping underneath the planets? If they can't I suspect the strength of the threat is based purely on the proposed size of the necron armies/fleet.

I seem to remember hearing that their space fleets were exceptionally advanced- is that right? If they are I imagine that would cause some problems for the imperial navy if they had the numbers.

Reanimator wrote:I'll confess to knowing much less about necrons than I ought, so for clarification, what would the scale of the ressurection be? For example, are there a limited supply of necrons? Can they make any more than are currently sleeping underneath the planets? If they can't I suspect the strength of the threat is based purely on the proposed size of the necron armies/fleet.

I seem to remember hearing that their space fleets were exceptionally advanced- is that right? If they are I imagine that would cause some problems for the imperial navy if they had the numbers.

Scarab swarms, Tomb Spyders and Tomb Stalkers can be built, the rest are a set number. However, every time a Necron dies it gets teleported back to the nearest Tomb World to be repaired. Necron spaceships are the most advanced in the galaxy, they can travel across the galaxy in the blink of an eye, and their firepower is stupidly good. Hence, whilst it's a set number, they don't die.

What if you blew all the tomb worlds up at once?

You're going to destroy every tomb world, which encircle the galaxy, at the same time, and completely destroy them even though Necrons have the power to bend space to their bidding so that they can fit massive areas inside small spaces. If any race can do that, who cares about any other factors, they've won 40K

Well a tomb world has been destroyed at least once so it should be possible to do again.

purplefood wrote:Well a tomb world has been destroyed at least once so it should be possible to do again.

But all of them? Simultaneously?

Scarey Nerd wrote:

purplefood wrote:Well a tomb world has been destroyed at least once so it should be possible to do again.

But all of them? Simultaneously?

Not simoultaneously...
1 by 1.
Using brute force, cunning, sneaky tactics whatever works.
It'll happen eventually and the IoM has a lot more reasources to throw at the problem than anyone else.

I think one of the difficulties of that whole plan is finding the Tomb Worlds, it's not like there are giant bilboards that say "Necron Tomb World Next Left"

purplefood wrote:Not simoultaneously...
1 by 1.
Using brute force, cunning, sneaky tactics whatever works.
It'll happen eventually and the IoM has a lot more reasources to throw at the problem than anyone else.

Imagine the resistance on that planet. Every Necron in existance in one place

Wardragoon wrote:I think one of the difficulties of that whole plan is finding the Tomb Worlds, it's not like there are giant bilboards that say "Necron Tomb World Next Left"

Unless you're Tyranids

Scarey Nerd wrote:

purplefood wrote:Not simoultaneously...
1 by 1.
Using brute force, cunning, sneaky tactics whatever works.
It'll happen eventually and the IoM has a lot more reasources to throw at the problem than anyone else.

Imagine the resistance on that planet. Every Necron in existance in one place

Wardragoon wrote:I think one of the difficulties of that whole plan is finding the Tomb Worlds, it's not like there are giant bilboards that say "Necron Tomb World Next Left"

Unless you're Tyranids

Then just use an exterminatus

purplefood wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

purplefood wrote:Not simoultaneously...
1 by 1.
Using brute force, cunning, sneaky tactics whatever works.
It'll happen eventually and the IoM has a lot more reasources to throw at the problem than anyone else.

Imagine the resistance on that planet. Every Necron in existance in one place

Wardragoon wrote:I think one of the difficulties of that whole plan is finding the Tomb Worlds, it's not like there are giant bilboards that say "Necron Tomb World Next Left"

Unless you're Tyranids

Then just use an exterminatus

Problem with that is it only took (iirc) 3 Necron ships to land on the surface of mars, arguably 2nd most protected planet in the imperium.

Using exteriminatus though isn't a guaranteed way to destroy it either, as no one could say whether or not the Tombhold simply phased to another place after taking a certain amount of damage. Personally I think the C'tan are in the process of testing the Pariah gene in making possibly better versions of Necrons. After finding the best way to make quick and effective Pariah, then it's just phasing in the new warriors in place of the old. Sure the new ones can die much easier but they can also be replaced.

Azure wrote:Using exteriminatus though isn't a guaranteed way to destroy it either, as no one could say whether or not the Tombhold simply phased to another place after taking a certain amount of damage. Personally I think the C'tan are in the process of testing the Pariah gene in making possibly better versions of Necrons. After finding the best way to make quick and effective Pariah, then it's just phasing in the new warriors in place of the old. Sure the new ones can die much easier but they can also be replaced.

I fear for the Culexus assassins if they make Pariahs more powerful :S

Exterminatus is not what destroyed the necron tomb world, they couldn't get past the shields of the planet. IIRC it took the sacrifice of an entire space marine chapter and a LOT of luck and they still barely blew the thing up.

cross_revert wrote:Exterminatus is not what destroyed the necron tomb world, they couldn't get past the shields of the planet. IIRC it took the sacrifice of an entire space marine chapter and a LOT of luck and they still barely blew the thing up.*

Are you thinking of the World Engine, the moving Necron Tomb World that was more powerful than the Death Star, which the Astral Knights sacrificed themselves to destroy after it tore up 2/3 of an Imperial fleet by itself.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

cross_revert wrote:Exterminatus is not what destroyed the necron tomb world, they couldn't get past the shields of the planet. IIRC it took the sacrifice of an entire space marine chapter and a LOT of luck and they still barely blew the thing up.*

Are you thinking of the World Engine, the moving Necron Tomb World that was more powerful than the Death Star, which the Astral Knights sacrificed themselves to destroy after it tore up 2/3 of an Imperial fleet by itself.

Yes. That. It's my favorite bit of fluff about necrons personally.

cross_revert wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

cross_revert wrote:Exterminatus is not what destroyed the necron tomb world, they couldn't get past the shields of the planet. IIRC it took the sacrifice of an entire space marine chapter and a LOT of luck and they still barely blew the thing up.*

Are you thinking of the World Engine, the moving Necron Tomb World that was more powerful than the Death Star, which the Astral Knights sacrificed themselves to destroy after it tore up 2/3 of an Imperial fleet by itself.

Yes. That. It's my favorite bit of fluff about necrons personally.

Same here, I started building a memorial dedicated to the Astral Knights' heroism but got bored

Necrons have few problems to conquer the universe:

1- Warp.
As I recall, Old Ones created physic races (Eldar) to defeat Necrons. So it seems that Warp is doing some kind of harm to them. And almost all races in the galaxy are warp sensitive. So I think that Necrons would have hard time fighting CSM and Chaos Daemons.

2- Titans.
Greatest war machines for each race. If the information from DoW Winter Assault true, then 1 Titan can successfully hold down Necron invasion force to some level. As I recall, in WA 1 Titan destroyed dozen Monoliths and numerous Necron warriors - and IG and Eldar only used side cannons. Not even the main ones.

3- Orks and Tyranids.
I do not know how many Necrons there are in the galaxy. But I don't know how in Earth are they going to exterminate these two races. Orks and Tyranids have insane numbers on their sides, even the technology gave little help against them.

For now this will do and i will think of something else later...

Brother Coa wrote:Necrons have few problems to conquer the universe:

1- Warp.

And Necrons have a way of cancelling out the Warp, anyway

Brother Coa wrote:
3- Orks and Tyranids.
I do not know how many Necrons there are in the galaxy. But I don't know how in Earth are they going to exterminate these two races. Orks and Tyranids have insane numbers on their sides, even the technology gave little help against them.

I don't know, of all the races the necrons stand the most chance against Tyranids for 2 main reasons:
1) When a necron gets broke they just phase out, which leaves no biomass for the hive fleet to consume, effectively making any conflicts against the Necrons at best a stalemate from the Hive Minds perspective. They gain nothing from it

2) Gauss Weaponry. This literally flays the target at the molecular level (if memory serves) which again means no biomass would be around for the Hive Fleet to consume. or to put it another way:
i) Hive Fleet x invades world (Tomb World or otherwise)
ii) necrons engage Tyranids
iii) For every necron destroyed the Tyranids gain no biomass due to Phasing out
iv) Every dead Tyranid from Guass weapons means a loss of biomass for the Hive Fleet. The cost of creating the organism is not recouped after the battle as there is nothing to reabsorb
v) Rinse and Repeat until the Hive Fleet is drained of resources

So really, if anything, Necrons are the most suited for fighting the Tyranids. Even if they loose they have drained Hive Fleets of resources and can come back at full strength to have another crack at them and inflict further losses.

In the case of the Orks, I don't know whether Guass Weapons prevent the release of spores upon the death of the Ork, although due to the molecular break down of the target I would assume so. In which case Orks could be dealt with using technology

Storm Lord wrote:

I don't know, of all the races the necrons stand the most chance against Tyranids for 2 main reasons:
1) When a necron gets broke they just phase out, which leaves no biomass for the hive fleet to consume, effectively making any conflicts against the Necrons at best a stalemate from the Hive Minds perspective. They gain nothing from it

2) Gauss Weaponry. This literally flays the target at the molecular level (if memory serves) which again means no biomass would be around for the Hive Fleet to consume. or to put it another way:
i) Hive Fleet x invades world (Tomb World or otherwise)
ii) necrons engage Tyranids
iii) For every necron destroyed the Tyranids gain no biomass due to Phasing out
iv) Every dead Tyranid from Guass weapons means a loss of biomass for the Hive Fleet. The cost of creating the organism is not recouped after the battle as there is nothing to reabsorb
v) Rinse and Repeat until the Hive Fleet is drained of resources

So really, if anything, Necrons are the most suited for fighting the Tyranids. Even if they loose they have drained Hive Fleets of resources and can come back at full strength to have another crack at them and inflict further losses.

In the case of the Orks, I don't know whether Guass Weapons prevent the release of spores upon the death of the Ork, although due to the molecular break down of the target I would assume so. In which case Orks could be dealt with using technology

You are right for the Orks, except the spore part. They drop them all the time, and it is hard t exterminate each and everyone of them in time before they turned into real Ork. You are wrong for the Tyranid fleet, as my memory serves me correctly - they consume their entire galaxy. So every hive fleet have more than enough recourses to consume entire sectors. Just remember the battle for Maccrage - IoM won barely. And in the end there where so many dead Tyranids that you could travel from one end of the continent to other to never touch ground. So in your explanation, only full awoken tomb world have a chance to defeat it. All others will fail. Than again - most Tomb Worlds are dead so not in reach of the Tyranid fleets.

Brother Coa wrote:
You are right for the Orks, except the spore part. They drop them all the time, and it is hard to exterminate each and everyone of them in time before they turned into real Ork. You are wrong for the Tyranid fleet, as my memory serves me correctly - they consume their entire galaxy. So every hive fleet have more than enough recourses to consume entire sectors. Just remember the battle for Maccrage - IoM won barely. And in the end there where so many dead Tyranids that you could travel from one end of the continent to other to never touch ground. So in your explanation, only full awoken tomb world have a chance to defeat it. All others will fail. Than again - most Tomb Worlds are dead so not in reach of the Tyranid fleets.

I see what you're saying. I'm not all that familiar with Ork reproduction, and assumed the Spores were only released when they die.

Firstly, Necrons don't equal Space Marines and Imperial Guard, so while I see where you're coming from in regard to the battle of Macarrage and the casulaty rates of it it doesn't quite match up to how the Necrons would deal with it.
Secondly to elaborate on the point I made earlier:
Lets say the Hive Fleet in question attacks a world. Whether this world is a Tomb World, agricultural world, Hive World etc is largely irrelevant in many respects, just as long as necrons have some way to arrive their. (Either by space fleet, inside the planet, teleport and so forth) The Tyranids invade the planet disgourging x amount of spores and creatures to get the job done. These creatures detract from the total reserve of biomas in the fleet

For the sake of argument say the number 100 represents the total reserve of biomas in the fleet. (This is for simplicities sake) If the Hive Fleet uses 20 units of Biomas to create creatures for the invasion then it has a reserve of 80 left. Now ordinarily this biomas expended would be regained at the end of the battle through absorbing the carcasses of the dead Tyranids back into the Hive Fleet, along with the Biomas from the dead foes, thereby surpassing the original total of 100.

In the case of a war against the Necrons, the 20 units used to create the invasion force would be lost to the Hive Fleet via the use of Gauss Weapons carried by even the most basic of Necron Troops. If the Hive Fleet was to continue to send in waves of Tyranids created from its total pool of Biomatter it would eventually run out of said biomatter within the Hive Fleet.
Now I am not for one minute suggesting that the necron force would neccesarily be able to destroy the Entire Tyranid Fleet in one stand. Of course they'll take damage and possibly have to retreat, however in retreating they remove all their 'dead' from the world (thereby removing the biomatter) and repair, upon doing so they could then come back and take another go at the Tyranids on the same Planet, slowly draining its reserves of Biomatter to the point where the fleet is either unable to mount significant attacks upon the galaxy or become dormant. At which point the Necron fleet (or other fleet in the area) would stand a good chance to destroy it.
This could in theory be done by even a small sized necron force, it would just take a very long time. So quite why you think only a full scale Tomb world could do this I'm not sure

I acknowledge that the Tyranids have consumed their own Galaxy, but the long voyage to ours has left them hungry (I'd provide a refernece but dont have the Tyranid Codex to hand) The fact that even the Imperium and (unbeleivably) the Tau have blunted entire splinter fleets means the Necrons, who had the numbers to subjugate the Galaxy once using technology should also be able to inflict damage on the Tyranids, above and beyond what the other races have so far done. Plus the fact the shadow in the Warp has no effect upon them, so doesn't damage communication (if there is any) between tomb worlds.

Sorry for the long winded post. Also, if this ends up going off Topic then id be more than happy to take up this line of debate via PM

as OP i deffinately dont think it goes off topic, it goes to represent the threat of Necrons against possibly the other major threat in the universe

Storm Lord wrote:

I see what you're saying. I'm not all that familiar with Ork reproduction, and assumed the Spores were only released when they die.

Firstly, Necrons don't equal Space Marines and Imperial Guard, so while I see where you're coming from in regard to the battle of Macarrage and the casulaty rates of it it doesn't quite match up to how the Necrons would deal with it.
Secondly to elaborate on the point I made earlier:
Lets say the Hive Fleet in question attacks a world. Whether this world is a Tomb World, agricultural world, Hive World etc is largely irrelevant in many respects, just as long as necrons have some way to arrive their. (Either by space fleet, inside the planet, teleport and so forth) The Tyranids invade the planet disgourging x amount of spores and creatures to get the job done. These creatures detract from the total reserve of biomas in the fleet

For the sake of argument say the number 100 represents the total reserve of biomas in the fleet. (This is for simplicities sake) If the Hive Fleet uses 20 units of Biomas to create creatures for the invasion then it has a reserve of 80 left. Now ordinarily this biomas expended would be regained at the end of the battle through absorbing the carcasses of the dead Tyranids back into the Hive Fleet, along with the Biomas from the dead foes, thereby surpassing the original total of 100.

In the case of a war against the Necrons, the 20 units used to create the invasion force would be lost to the Hive Fleet via the use of Gauss Weapons carried by even the most basic of Necron Troops. If the Hive Fleet was to continue to send in waves of Tyranids created from its total pool of Biomatter it would eventually run out of said biomatter within the Hive Fleet.
Now I am not for one minute suggesting that the necron force would neccesarily be able to destroy the Entire Tyranid Fleet in one stand. Of course they'll take damage and possibly have to retreat, however in retreating they remove all their 'dead' from the world (thereby removing the biomatter) and repair, upon doing so they could then come back and take another go at the Tyranids on the same Planet, slowly draining its reserves of Biomatter to the point where the fleet is either unable to mount significant attacks upon the galaxy or become dormant. At which point the Necron fleet (or other fleet in the area) would stand a good chance to destroy it.
This could in theory be done by even a small sized necron force, it would just take a very long time. So quite why you think only a full scale Tomb world could do this I'm not sure

I acknowledge that the Tyranids have consumed their own Galaxy, but the long voyage to ours has left them hungry (I'd provide a refernece but dont have the Tyranid Codex to hand) The fact that even the Imperium and (unbeleivably) the Tau have blunted entire splinter fleets means the Necrons, who had the numbers to subjugate the Galaxy once using technology should also be able to inflict damage on the Tyranids, above and beyond what the other races have so far done. Plus the fact the shadow in the Warp has no effect upon them, so doesn't damage communication (if there is any) between tomb worlds.

Sorry for the long winded post. Also, if this ends up going off Topic then id be more than happy to take up this line of debate via PM

Your post is great, I only see one flaw. I do not doubt that one Necron tomb world could take down Tyranid forces on the planet's surface (after all great number of their forces was destroyed by 100 Terminators in BfM), but regarding to your post: "So quite why you think only a full scale Tomb world could do this I'm not sure" is because Tyranids have one important advantage over Necrons -SPEED. Basic Tyranid fleet can take over all planetary defenses in 20 days, and take all planet's biomass in just little under 80 days. Necrons are slow by their nature, and the example is the conquest of Damnos. There, they conquered the planet, but only after a year of awakening. And you say that in battle all Necrons would kill Tyranids before they had chance to reach them - you are mistaken here. At the battle for Maccrage, Imperial Guardsman stationed at p[lanetary capital said that Tyranids where at 500m of them. They started shooting then, and he was able to fire only 3 las shots before they reached him. And since Tyranids outnumber them 20 to 1 in normal cases they would be swiftly slaughtered.
Necrons wins in any matter by technological advancement, but if the tomb world is awakening - then Tyranids wins by share speed. And to close this: evidence can be seen in DoW Dark Crusade and Soulstorm. Where just awakened tomb worlds are easily defeated.

Brother Coa wrote: ...Tyranids have one important advantage over Necrons -SPEED. Basic Tyranid fleet can take over all planetary defenses in 20 days, and take all planet's biomass in just little under 80 days. ....

Necrons wins in any matter by technological advancement, but if the tomb world is awakening - then Tyranids wins by share speed. And to close this: evidence can be seen in DoW Dark Crusade and Soulstorm. Where just awakened tomb worlds are easily defeated.

Necrons are possibly the fastest race in space travel as far as I know. A tyranid swarm will NEVER attack a tombworld of it's own volition and so cannot take advantage of necrons during their vulnerable moments whereas the necrons do attack tyranid fleets due to overlapping harvesting schedules.

As for the necron threat I would rate it below that of the tyranids personally. Recent fluff has them as needing quite a bit of sprucing up and the hundreds of C'Tan that lead them during the Old Wars are almost all dead now.

Brother Coa wrote:
And you say that in battle all Necrons would kill Tyranids before they had chance to reach them - you are mistaken here. At the battle for Maccrage, Imperial Guardsman stationed at p[lanetary capital said that Tyranids where at 500m of them. They started shooting then, and he was able to fire only 3 las shots before they reached him. And since Tyranids outnumber them 20 to 1 in normal cases they would be swiftly slaughtered.
Necrons wins in any matter by technological advancement, but if the tomb world is awakening - then Tyranids wins by share speed. And to close this: evidence can be seen in DoW Dark Crusade and Soulstorm. Where just awakened tomb worlds are easily defeated.

My apologies if I gave the impression that the Tyranids would never reach the Necrons. Of course some of the Tyranid organisms will reach the Necron lines, taking some of them down and thereby out of the Battle-but not the war due to the self-repair capabilities of the Necrons. Mt point was that the necrons can reduce the biomas of the Hive Fleets without actually taking any meaningful losses themselves. Also, bear in mind that Necrons have one advantage that could prevent the Tyranids reaching them which is Teleportation around the battlefield, although the extent to which this is possible has been little realised in the fluff thus far.

And Scrabb has it correct in the speed of Necron space Travel. While the ground forces are ponderous the space fleets move with astounding speed and accuracy given how they don't use the warp. After all, speed was needed to infiltrate Mars. In the Word Bearers series a Necron Fleet appeared out of nowhere in the blink of an eye. Also, I do beleive in Battlefleet Gothic and the Necron Codex it states how Necrons can pull off near impossible feats of manouverability despite the speeds in which they travell. Add in the self-repair mechanisms of the ships and their space fleet is quite something to be feared.

Storm Lord wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
And you say that in battle all Necrons would kill Tyranids before they had chance to reach them - you are mistaken here. At the battle for Maccrage, Imperial Guardsman stationed at p[lanetary capital said that Tyranids where at 500m of them. They started shooting then, and he was able to fire only 3 las shots before they reached him. And since Tyranids outnumber them 20 to 1 in normal cases they would be swiftly slaughtered.
Necrons wins in any matter by technological advancement, but if the tomb world is awakening - then Tyranids wins by share speed. And to close this: evidence can be seen in DoW Dark Crusade and Soulstorm. Where just awakened tomb worlds are easily defeated.

My apologies if I gave the impression that the Tyranids would never reach the Necrons. Of course some of the Tyranid organisms will reach the Necron lines, taking some of them down and thereby out of the Battle-but not the war due to the self-repair capabilities of the Necrons. Mt point was that the necrons can reduce the biomas of the Hive Fleets without actually taking any meaningful losses themselves. Also, bear in mind that Necrons have one advantage that could prevent the Tyranids reaching them which is Teleportation around the battlefield, although the extent to which this is possible has been little realised in the fluff thus far.

And Scrabb has it correct in the speed of Necron space Travel. While the ground forces are ponderous the space fleets move with astounding speed and accuracy given how they don't use the warp. After all, speed was needed to infiltrate Mars. In the Word Bearers series a Necron Fleet appeared out of nowhere in the blink of an eye. Also, I do beleive in Battlefleet Gothic and the Necron Codex it states how Necrons can pull off near impossible feats of manouverability despite the speeds in which they travell. Add in the self-repair mechanisms of the ships and their space fleet is quite something to be feared.

I see how their "maneuverability" served them well on Kronus, Kaurava III, Malbrede, Medusa V...

Here's what you do. Find the plug. Pull the plug. Their logistics may not be conventional but they do exist.