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So, mech Eldar, going for the S6 spam list. Kinda list building, but im more interested in the tactical applicatin of S6 spamming and how much would be effective.
I tend to change my list every other day taking something out, putting something else in... but always trying to optimise S6 without compramising durability or number of troops choices.

So how much S6 spam would be good in a 1500 points list?
I can pretty much reach 70+ if i try hard enough but that leaves me lacking in other areas.

My general plan is to take 4 serpents (2 FD + 2 DA) with TL-SL + SC... so thats 28 already
Throw in 2 minimal GJB units with SC and that can add another 6
At LEAST two war walkers with SL and thats putting me at a total of 50 S6 shots.

50 S6 shots seems enough to me... but i keep wanting to add more, however i still have need of a HQ (Doomseer and Autarch spring to mind) so that leaves me with not many points left over...
I have enough to get a nightspinner w/ HF, alternativly i could take more walkers.... Overkill? I think so, but what does dakka think? Heres the latest list.

Farseer - doom, warding, spear
Autarch - fusion gun
5 Fire Dragons -
Wave serpent - TL-SL, SC
5 Fire Dragons -
Wave serpent - TL-SL, SC, SS
5 Dire Avengers -
Wave serpent - TL-SL, SC, SS
5 Dire Avengers -
Wave serpent - TL-SL, SC, SS
3 GJB - SC
3 GJB - SC
2x War Walkers - 4xSL
Night Spinner - SS,HF
Wraithlord - SL,SC

1500

So thats 58 S6 there... coupled with 11 melta shots and 28 S4 shots.
I think 58 would be enough... but i could always get more into the list, and more is usually better, but if i were to include more, i'd be cutting into areas that i think i need. And yes, i know, one lord at 1500 points is going to go down, but id rather him take a load of missiles to the face than a serpent. And if he manages to cause an opponent to hesitate or tar-pit something then all the better! And i will be playing battle missions with this so i like the lord just in case, i find not having him causes my opponents to keep assaulting my tanks whenever they are able to. The lord usually giving them pause for thought at the very least if hes anywhere near the tanks.

why S6? Do you really want to overkill an IG commander?

The jetbikes and wraithlord are the weak links, because they're not vehicles so they give your opponent something to shoot his antipersonnel shots at (or poisoned shots for the wraithlord). Personally I'd go for more war walkers over a wraithlord.

It could work to leave the bikes in reserve and bring them in at the last second for objectives or whatever, but Ld8 and 3 models means they won't reliably stay on the table.

Other than that, it should work.

Exergy wrote:why S6? Do you really want to overkill an IG commander?

Not quite...

Flavius Infernus wrote:The jetbikes and wraithlord are the weak links, because they're not vehicles so they give your opponent something to shoot his antipersonnel shots at (or poisoned shots for the wraithlord). Personally I'd go for more war walkers over a wraithlord.

It could work to leave the bikes in reserve and bring them in at the last second for objectives or whatever, but Ld8 and 3 models means they won't reliably stay on the table.

Other than that, it should work.

General idea for the bikes is to be reserved, if the enemy lacks barrage i'll abuse JSJ to keep them alive and they are very cheap objective holders, the cheapness also makes them very easy to take out. It all depends on how i place objectives.
As for the lord, replacing him with 2 walkers is a possibility if/when i can get more, which will give me another 11 shots

WL doesn't fit this list.

Instead, drop him and the jetbikes and go for another WS or more WWs.

Does str6 spam work? Yes, so long as your meta has lots of light mech or infantry (which most lists now a days do).

Obviously AV13 spam or a Land Raider list will be problematic, but against your typical tournament list, you will shoot their pants off.

Since S6 wounds just about every infantry unit on a 2+ guide might be more effective.

In a list like that I am not a fan of the autarch another farseer can force multiply.

Reecius wrote:WL doesn't fit this list.

Instead, drop him and the jetbikes and go for another WS or more WWs.

Does str6 spam work? Yes, so long as your meta has lots of light mech or infantry (which most lists now a days do).

Obviously AV13 spam or a Land Raider list will be problematic, but against your typical tournament list, you will shoot their pants off.

WL is a bit of a problem, i think perhaps i am to fond of my lords... if i manage to get 2 more walkers i can put those in instead. As for the bikes, i simply like having the scoring units, possibly considering dropping one to give an emboldenlock to the other and another bike.
As for AV13 spam, i think my speed should help get side shots and 2 units of dragons can take out land raiders, if i run into 3 in 1500... well... i don't want to think about that.

schadenfreude wrote:Since S6 wounds just about every infantry unit on a 2+ guide might be more effective.

In a list like that I am not a fan of the autarch another farseer can force multiply.

Give me a 2+ roll and i'll end up rolling alot of 1's...
Doom will also give me an edge on T:5+ creatures, where as guide would leave the seer babysitting the walkers, and if the walkers outflank then guide is wasted.

I've toyed with the idea of dropping the Autarch but i'll most likely miss the +1 to reserves, and against some forces, especially when i'm going second, i will be reserving up. Both choices are good, but its hard to prepare for all situations at 1500 IMO

Yes, doom really shines against daemon princes, thunderwolves, bikes of all kinds, and tyranid monstrous creatures. You'll typically be concentrating large amounts of fire on one target of this type at a time, so giving everything the ability to reroll wounds gets you more benefit than increasing the chances that a single unit will hit. Also guide's 6" range requires a lot of advance planning and limits your movement options in a way that doom does not.

And it's really hard to get rid of the autarch. When you depend so much on reserves, he's worth his points for the bonus.

Yeah, the reserve game is half of what makes Mechdar in 5th ed shine.

With str6, you won't be needing doom much unless you play Daemons and Bugs a lot. Even then, through sheer volume of fire, you should be fine. You can't cast Doom from inside a WS anyway (IRRC) as it has no fire points, so you would need a Jetseer which is a squishy target for small arms fire with nothing else to shoot at.

I say dual autarchs is the right choice in this type of list.

Aha, you can cast doom from inside a wave serpent, no LoS required, and the serpent extends the range a bit.

In tournament play you can expect all the competitive chaos builds to have flying daemon princes, all the competitive space wolf builds to have thunderwolves, all the competitive nid builds to have multiple T6 bugs, some of the competitive ork builds to have nob bikers and/or warbosses on bikes, and all of the competitive daemon builds to have multiple T5-6 flying creatures. All of these things are fast-moving, hard-hitting threats to your skimmers. A tournament is a target-rich environment for doom.

Also you want the seer mainly for the runes of warding, because living lightning and bloodlance will ruin your day otherwise. Since you have to have a power anyway, doom is cheap and is the one with the widest applicability in this type of army.

2 Autarchs would be fun... but would only be good on turn 2, where you can take advantage of the +2 to reserves.
The Farseer can be used every turn to cast a power... and the powers are limited, Mind war and Eldritch storm require me to disembark and are unreliable, fortune is decent, but its small range is its downside and if i fortune up and move flat out thats one less weapon platform firing, and plenty of other targets to shoot at that won't have a 4+ re-rollable cover.

So it really comes down to guide and doom, and doom having the greater range, and the ability to pile-on one particular unit really makes it better for me (i think)

Flavius Infernus wrote:In tournament play you can expect all the competitive chaos builds to have flying daemon princes...some of the competitive ork builds to have nob bikers and/or warbosses on bikes

Maybe last year. With Space Wolves and new Deathwing lash has switched to sorcerors and Nob Bikers are even more of a relic of the past. Fifteen to Twenty missile launchers everywhere definitely shifted the meta.

Anyhow, you've got mass S6, but that's about it. Only two scoring units. No real assault element, no real heavy shooting element aside from two melta squads. 58 S6 shots kills less than 5 Plague Marines.

What's your answer to mech IG?

What's your answer to razorspam Wolves or BA?

Seems like Dark Eldar would do this style of list much better with a more rounded list. Just something to think about before you buy models.

I agree with Flavius on pretty much all points. There aren't that many Nob bikers around anymore, but there are plenty of SM bikers, TWC, and other T5-6 targets around. And when you're putting out this many S6 shots, the number of 1s you roll to wound is pretty substantial even against lower-toughness targets. Doom also helps your Fire Dragons finish off wounded squads of Plague Marines.

The importance of Doom's range and flexibility needs to be emphasized too. Guide limits your movement much more.

At 1500pts 60-70 S6 shots does a pretty good number on the AV11 & AV10 vehicles people can field (even if the vehicles don't die quickly, their shooting and movement quickly degrade), or forces Long Fangs to make a metric ton of armor saves, and doesn't care about 4+ cover.

sourclams wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:In tournament play you can expect all the competitive chaos builds to have flying daemon princes...some of the competitive ork builds to have nob bikers and/or warbosses on bikes

Maybe last year. With Space Wolves and new Deathwing lash has switched to sorcerors and Nob Bikers are even more of a relic of the past. Fifteen to Twenty missile launchers everywhere definitely shifted the meta.

Anyhow, you've got mass S6, but that's about it. Only two scoring units. No real assault element, no real heavy shooting element aside from two melta squads. 58 S6 shots kills less than 5 Plague Marines.
-Two scoring units?
-Not every army needs an assault element, my Eldar never really have had one... there have been times, but i find combat messy.
-Most vehicles can be shot in the side armour with mobility factored in and any list in 1500 that has 3 LR's mean yes, 2 FD units arn't enough but then the opponent has spent 50% plus of their points on 3 vehicles, 2 of which i could take out quite easily.

What's your answer to mech IG?
- My meta has none... most guard nearby are mixed mech/infantry and as such are not a problem for local play or local tournaments.

What's your answer to razorspam Wolves or BA?
- Razors can be brought down with mass S6 shooting, the speed of the BA can cause problems but could possibly be worked around

Seems like Dark Eldar would do this style of list much better with a more rounded list. Just something to think about before you buy models.
Creating a list is primarily based on army fluff and the general look of the army, trying out many lists S6 spams seems to be a fun list to play, and fun is paramount. A DE force would simply not be my cup of tea

Flavius Infernus wrote:Aha, you can cast doom from inside a wave serpent, no LoS required, and the serpent extends the range a bit.

Ah, good to know. I didn't think you could.

S6 has no problem with Razorspam. With VoF you will get a ton of punches and glances as Mannahnin pointed out. My WWs in my footdar just smoke AV11 and down.

Like others have said, mobility gives you side shots on Chimeras, which are easy pickings on side armor. Even taking them head on you will keep them from shooting and FDs will smoke them.

I agree about not having to worry about Lash Princes anymore. Everytime I see those guys I feel bad for my opponent. They just are liability against top tier armies, now. Sorcerers are so much better these days (and yeah, RoW would be nice there but you are fully meched up, so not much to worry about with lash). Living Lightening isn't that bad, really. It's an average of 2 - 3 S7 hits a shot. You don't even see it that often, at least not IME. I see Storm Caller and JotWW much more frequently. Same with Blood Lance. I just don't see it that often or fear it, really. I wouldn't take a counter unit for those power at any rate.

Doom, fortune and guide would be useful for sure, although I would still run two Autarchs most the time because that allows you to simply ignore the roll to go first. You can always alhpa strike from reserves which is pretty awesome.

Nob bikers I still see a lot of, but it is typically a squad of 6 or so. Not that old 22 strong list that crushed people. The smaller squads can be smashed with concentrated FD fire.

Plague Marines? That can be problematic if it is an objective game, but FDs and Autarchs with fusions guns can take them out with concentrated fire, although you could really only smoke one squad at a time before taking heavy counter fire in most cases.

Again, I'd say drop the WL as he really doesn't mesh that well, and the GJBs as they are pretty much a liability and take another unit of FDs in a WS. That shores up a lot of your gaps.

Mechdar does work very well, though. They are flexible to take on Missile lists and have strong scoring potential plus mass firepower.

Hmmm, about three months ago I played against the nob biker unit of 6 in a local RTT. Two months ago at an RTT I played against the pair of warbosses on bikes. Last month in a GT I played against dual flying warptime nurgle princes (I don't see lash princes much anymore, but I still see the warptime guys). So maybe my area is different.

In that game against chaos, I dealt with the plague marines by stranding one unit (shooting up their rhino) and the second unit by tarpitting them with an autarch.

I'm surprised you can't see how the army works, Sourclams. Not by destroying the enemy, but by just winning the mission. You focus on the 2 or 3 big threats for the first part of the game (predators, long fangs, fast-moving monstrous creatures) then once that's dead and nothing on the table can really hurt you, you hold one objective and contest the rest for the win. Or use the massed str6 firepower to take out easy targets in KP missions, then flee until the clock runs out.

Thus you really only need one scoring unit, and no assault.

But I agree that FNP and players who know how to really cover their side armor are the big challenge.

Trialed a list with a lord in twice today today

Game 1: Vs BA
The Lord provided a back-field support unit, discouraging drop pods. One dread pod did drop behind my lines onto an objective, hoping to cause a big enough distraction as to pull away most of my firepower. The Lord was easily able to mop up the backfield and even took out some DC that swept in to target the bike unit that was holding that objective. In this game, he proved incredibly useful in securing and helping to hold that backfield objective.

Game 2: Vs Orks
With the green tide advancing my S6 peppered the kans, with the NS attempting to slow down the infantry (which worked quite well) With little ranged attack power i could simply line up and back-pedal with the serpents, before moving the lord forward to flame some boyz in cover and charge in, tying them up long enough to buy me time to get into position to grab the majority of objectives. Again, the lord proved useful, he did die in this one... but he did his job

Do you utilize the Autarch's reserve roll bonus? If so, under what conditions? I'm curious to know how the synergy of the army works.

Do you have any issues with the Wraithlord and Wraithsight? It appears the army would work very well being mobile, but Wraithsight can become an issue.

Regarding GJB, I do prefer having a Warlock with Embolden in one unit. Your army already includes several fast moving units, so if you go down to 1 GJB squad, it should not be too much of a detriment (I assume you mainly use the GJB to hold/contest objectives late game).

Overall, it's a very finesse army which is a fun challenge to play.

Sarigar wrote:Do you utilize the Autarch's reserve roll bonus? If so, under what conditions? I'm curious to know how the synergy of the army works.

Do you have any issues with the Wraithlord and Wraithsight? It appears the army would work very well being mobile, but Wraithsight can become an issue.

Regarding GJB, I do prefer having a Warlock with Embolden in one unit. Your army already includes several fast moving units, so if you go down to 1 GJB squad, it should not be too much of a detriment (I assume you mainly use the GJB to hold/contest objectives late game).

Overall, it's a very finesse army which is a fun challenge to play.

@Autarch. I do not use the reserve bonus all that much, most of the time i'll deploy if im going first and if i'm going second it all depends on how the enemy deploys, as i could do well with deploying normally. But when i do use it doesn't do so much that its noticable, but it has helped out and is nice to have just in case as when i come on i get to shoot first.

@Wraithsight. Generally the lord will stay near the seers transport to begin with, with doom being 24" i can hang back with the lord if needs be, generally i tend to form a wall of grav tanks and eliminate the enemys mobility before swooping in. After that the lord seems to be ok on his own being a deterrent near an objective. If i need him moved up he the skimmers can move 12" while the lord performs a run move to keep up with them and usually manages to claim cover from a grav tank. And if anyone tries to get into close combat range of the tanks the lord can charge out and tie something up for a while until he gets a powerfist to the shins.

@GJB. 50 points for a warlock on a bike with embolden is not a promising prospect, it can be worth it but... generally i find some nice terrain i can hide behind and JSJ with the cannon. When it comes to objectives i try to place them where i can secure an objective without exposing the bikes to fire. If i play KP, the bikes go into reserves and hide back-mid field on a flank and JSJ again where they can be safe.

Interesting. I'm a big fan of the Wraithlord, but always a bit hesitant with a mechanized build. Good to read some success with it. Food for thought.

I cringe at not getting first turn and exposing my WS to the fire, however, I probably am playing a bit too timid and should look toward setting up for cover saves.

Thanks for the info. Definitely gives me some things to consider.

Surprised no one has suggested this, but I was thinking that an obvious addition would be a pair of prisms with holofields?

It would add a punch past your S6 spam for the instances when your opponents bring out the big tanks.

Other than that general agreement with which units don't fit.

Another idea would be to bring in good ole Eldrad as your Seer for the additional Doom a turn.

I've trialed dual prisms for a few games, even took 3 for one of them...
They performed admirably against one player, who decided it was best to unload all his marines from one access point of his rhino (so very nice coverage from the blasts) but other than that they seemed a little sub par for me. Their AT role seemed a little lack-lustre with the chance to scatter and my extraordinary abily to shake tanks, while their AI was good, it usually required combining two prisms (marines everywhere...) which for me is not a good investment of points at 1500. I like the night spinner more, as is has other qualities to its weapon besides main damage.

Eldrad is a decent choice, albeit an expensive one. The abilty two doom two units isn't a main concern as i tend to pile it onto one unit at a time until it stops twitching, but the abilty two fortune two grav tanks could be very usefull as will his divination. Adding in Eldrad, I'd proberly drop the Autarch, the +1 to reserves is nice, but not essential if i'm going first or have decent deployment options. Eldrad could be a better use of points... but I always feel mean taking him.

That is an awful lot of S6 spam. But, it could use a bit more!

Consider dropping the Wraithlord and 1 squad of Fire Dragons.

That will free up points to fill out the last War Walker.

And, you can take a squad of Warp Spiders! 10 Warp Spiders+Exarch w/Dual guns = 22 S6 shots! Almost a 50% increase to your current list!

Warp spiders have always been a favorite of mine... and feature in my foot lists. That is also another possibility... now i have too many ^.^