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Ran into this today and I think I interpreted it correctly but I wanted to be sure since my opponent disagreed.

A unit of Incubi is in CC with a single Celestian from the WH codex. There are 4 Incubi surrounding the Celestian and an Archon. A Canoness assaults into the existing combat, making base contact with a single Incubi (as per the assault rules). At the start of combat there are...

Archon - b2b with only the Celestian
3x Incubi - b2b with only the Celestian
1x Incubi - b2b with the Celestian and Canoness.

All models are within 2" of one another.

If the Celestian is slain at I7 (? before the Incubi when the Archon strikes), which models can attack the Canoness?

All models are withing 2" of an enemy model, or a model in b2b contact with an enemy model? Then any model that has not already used its close combat attacks to kill the Celestian can use its attacks against the Canonness.

I forgot a relevant rules quote as well, BRB pp 41

"Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit"

Oh, looking at that, it doesn't seem that RAW your Incubi can attack. They just get to stand there and get whacked by the Canoness until the next assault phase.

Wouldn't the single Incubus in b2b get to attack the canoness?

Yes the Single Incubus can attack the canoness because he was in B2B with the Celestian and the Canoness.

The ERRATA/FAQ has what you are looking for:

ERRATA
Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any
model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy
unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy
units, must attack that unit

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_Warhammer_40,000_Rulebook_FAQ_V1_1.pdf

Who can attack whom is assessed before attacks are rolled for and does not change due to casualties. So only the one Incubi in B2B with the Cannoness could attack her. Unless there where other Incubi within 2" of the one and not in B2B with another enemy unit.

you are all wrong. When the canoness charged the incubi she became a valid target for the incubi in b2b AS WELL AS all within 2" of him. The charge move occurs before models attack, so models charging into an existing combat can be struck by more then just who they base up with.

Unless they were in B2B with other models, which was the case here.

if you are in B2B with one unit at the start thats the only unit you can attack since who can fight is figured out before any blows are struck

Yup, models in base contact with one unit can not choose to attack a unit within 2" instead. They have to attack what they are in base contact with.

insaniak wrote:Yup, models in base contact with one unit can not choose to attack a unit within 2" instead. They have to attack what they are in base contact with.

Even if that unit is destroyed my the time they get to attack.

I.E. only the '1x Incubi - b2b with the Celestian and Canoness.' can attack either unit.

the:

Archon - b2b with only the Celestian
3x Incubi - b2b with only the Celestian

both have to attack the Celestian, even if by the time the Incubi's init comes up the Celestian is dead.

I.E. the '3x Incubi' essentially lose their attacks.

Insaniak, SlavetoDorkness, Deathreaper and ChrisWW2 are all correct.

tetrisphreak wrote:I am all wrong.

Thanks for the confirmation, I was the owner of the Canoness in this case and that was my interpretation as well. My opponent wasn't very pleased because I ended up winning combat by 1 and then running him off the board.

They made these rules uber complicated.

I played a tournament a few weeks ago....round 1, his Khorne berzerkers multicharged an infantry platoon blob and a sentinel squadron.

On my turn, I charged in a callidus assassin on the Berzkers and my oppenent didn't think he was entitled to fight her with his guys.

I corrected him, but I think in his gaming circle they play it the incorrect way.

There's a lot of people who mistake "at the start of combat" to mean "at the start of the phase".

Ok, so I think I'm still a little bit confused. So say on Turn 2 a unit of 10 Necron Scarabs assault Mephiston. And on Turn 3 he's still locked in combat with 1 Scarab model and then the Deceiver joins on the assault. Can Mephiston attack the Deceiver or does he have to attack the Scarab since he was in base contact with it first?

I'm glad I ran into this discussion because I always did considered this rule to be a little bit complicated.

If Meph is in base to base with both the scarab and the deceiver then he is allowed to attack either.

Basically, after all assault and defender react moves are made, you decide who the legal targets are.

Veldrain wrote:If Meph is in base to base with both the scarab and the deceiver then he is allowed to attack either.

Basically, after all assault and defender react moves are made, you decide who the legal targets are.

That's what I thought, but then what does it mean on page 41 of the rule book under Multiple Combat mean when they say a model must attack the unit they were engaged with first? And right after that it goes on saying that if a model was engaged with multiple enemy units , then they may choose to split their attacks.

This is where I had second thoughts, and I also saw a video on Youtube between two players named Jawaballs and Frtiz who play at tournaments regularly, and at 2:05 during the video, they mention something about where you had to attack the model that you were engaged with first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwuAemDMaOo

If Mephiston was locked in combat with the Scarabs, he must direct his attacks on the Scarabs. That's what that rule means. So yes, pinnig down a close combat heavy unit with a crappy unit just so they can't hit back against YOUR super strong close combat unit is a totally valid tactic.

Veldrain would be right if this was all happening in one assault phase, say the Scarabs and Nightbringer charged Mephy. THEN Mephy would have to allocate his attacks.

The engaged part just means that if a model is in b2b with one unit and due to casualties the opposing model is removed leaving the original in base with nothing, it cannot then attack another unit, it must still swing at the original with which it was engaged.

No Chris, that is wrong. Veldrain is spot on.

what does it mean on page 41 of the rule book under Multiple Combat mean when they say a model must attack the unit they were engaged with first? And right after that it goes on saying that if a model was engaged with multiple enemy units , then they may choose to split their attacks.

The rule mentions that you must attack who you were engaged with at the start of the combat (just before attacks are made) to prevent models in B2B with a unit that is wiped out from attacking another unit in a later Initiative step.

For example, say you have a squad of Marines engaged with a unit of Banshees. The Marine Sgt. has a Power fist and is in B2B with the Banshees. Next turn The Eldar player moves a Wraithlord into contact with the unit within 2" of the Sgt. but not in B2B with him. Before attacks are made, the WL cannot be attacked by the Power Fist because he is in B2B with the Banshees and not the WL. If after the Marines attack all the Banshees are gone it would seem that the Sgt. (being within 2" of the WL) could attack the WL. This rule prevents that, because who may attack whom is assessed at the beginning of that round of combat.

Page 41 of the BRB clearly states that: "Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit." Below that it states that "Models that were engaged with more than one enmy unit at the begining of the combat may split their attacks freely."

So, let's say I've got a blob of Guard engaged with a squad of Assault Marines. In my assault phase, I charge in another blob of Guardsmen. So, by the first little bullet point, the assault Marine squad was locked in combat with just one unit. Blob #1. They were not in combat with Blob #2. Hence, they are not allowed to allocate attacks on Blob #2, and must focus all their attacks on blob #1.

In order for your situation, where attacks can be freely allocated to be true, I'll change the situation. I have a blob of Guardsmen (Blob 1) locked in combat with an assault Marine squad. On my opponents turn, he charges a second unit of assault marines in. On my turn, I charge in a 2nd blob. My first blob would be able to freely allocate its attacks since it was locked in combat with botm AM squads since the beginning of combat. However, since both AM squads were locked in combat with my one blob, they--once again--can not allocate attacks against my new blob.

Note, I am using locked in combat as a synonym for 'base to base contact at the start of the combat'.

ChrisWWII wrote:
So, let's say I've got a blob of Guard engaged with a squad of Assault Marines. In my assault phase, I charge in another blob of Guardsmen. So, by the first little bullet point, the assault Marine squad was locked in combat with just one unit. Blob #1. They were not in combat with Blob #2. Hence, they are not allowed to allocate attacks on Blob #2, and must focus all their attacks on blob #1.

This is an incorrect (although common) reading of that rule. It was even clarified in the FAQ. Blob #2 could still be attacked by the Assault Marines. In fact, if some marines were in b2b with only Blob #2 they would be compelled to attack them. The beginning of combat != the start of the assault phase. It is after charges have been declared/made and Defenders React moves have occurred.

You have me relatively convinced, but what does that rule do then, as it would seem to do nothing?

See the above post - it prevents a model in base with only unit #1 from swinging on unit#2 at a different initiative step if unit #1 is wiped out or the model finds itself in base with no models due to wounds.

A good example is some SM in assault with Banshees are assaulted by a Wraithlord. The Wraithlord is smartly not in base with a powerfist making it pretty safe. At I4 all the banshees are killed leaving the fist which now has no target to attack (as it is prohibited from swinging at the Wraithlord that turn).

ChrisWWII wrote:So, let's say I've got a blob of Guard engaged with a squad of Assault Marines. In my assault phase, I charge in another blob of Guardsmen. So, by the first little bullet point, the assault Marine squad was locked in combat with just one unit. Blob #1. They were not in combat with Blob #2. Hence, they are not allowed to allocate attacks on Blob #2, and must focus all their attacks on blob #1.

Just before you start rolling attack dice, you have to actually look at the assault marines and work out which blob each marine is engaged with. That's what the first bullet is getting at.

Look at the example at the bottom of page 41. Lets say for some reason the Orcs attacked first and all three orcs died without inflicting casualties. Even though Marine #2 is within 2 inches of the Gretchin he cannot attack them. Because before any model attacked #2 was engaged with the Orcs and not the Gretchin.

Huh, ok then. That makes sense...alright, guess I was reading the rules wrong. Damn it...there goes THAT strategy.

Start of combat=/ Beginning of Assault phase

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Start of combat=/ Beginning of Assault phase

Actually, as per the latest Errata:

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any
model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy
unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy
units, must attack that unit.

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
In all three bullet points, the word ʻcombatʼ will be changed
to ʻround of combatʼ.

The beginning of the assault phase is when models are moved to assault enemy units.
Then which models are engaged and are in base to base is determined.
Then the attacks are carried out in initiative order.

So the start of combat occurs during the assault phase, not at the beginning of it.