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Compare the following two lists please. The strategy is the same for both: Terminators create termi bubble (i like to call Sword Brethren Termies a "Bro Bubble") in front of the the tanks conferring a cover save. The opponent will have a hell of a time trying to silence this list. It is weak on melta but has tons of suppression and anti-troop power.

List A

HQ:
EC w/ Accept any Challenge

Elite:
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters

Troop:
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit

Fast:
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder Typhoon
MM/HF Speeder

Heavy:
AC/LC Pred with Machine Spirit
AC/LC Pred with Machine Spirit


List B

HQ:
EC w/ Accept any Challenge

Elite:
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters
5xTermies with 2x CML, 1x Chain Fist and Tank Hunters

Troop:
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit
5xInitiates with TLLC RB, Hunter Killer and Machine Spirit

Fast:
2xLand Speeder Typhoon
2xLand Speeder Typhoon
2xMM Speeder

So a few problems the lists both have PotMS which is not needed and a wasted for really a single hunter killer you need to drop those! also 15 models that score in 2k can do about diddly squat. You need more troops without a doubt I would say 4 7-8 man squads in a rhino with a meltagun.

My list im currently working on.

Emperors champion accept any challenge

Marshal, lightning claw, storm shield, tankhunter, 4x sword brethren termies 2x assault cannons tankhunters
Land raider crusader

5x terminators 2x cyclone missile launchers tankhunters
5x terminators 2x cyclone missile launchers tankhunters
5x terminators 5x thunder hammer/storm shields furious assault

5x marines rhino
5x marines rhino
5x marines rhino

typhoon

2k even. as you can see I enjoy my terminators. Assault termies ride with marshal and emperors champ in land raider to make super killy unit o doom. A fun alternate list would have me drop the land raider, and for the exact same points you get: 10 assault marines, cc weapon and stormshields for all, and a powerfist. That is 10 3+ invun save 12' moving guys that make a pretty nice screen.

necronsftw wrote:So a few problems the lists both have PotMS which is not needed and a wasted for really a single hunter killer you need to drop those! also 15 models that score in 2k can do about diddly squat. You need more troops without a doubt I would say 4 7-8 man squads in a rhino with a meltagun.

The PotMS is going to keep these puppies fireing even with crew shaken/stunned results.

Three Scoring units is plenty in my experience. Especially since I play to cripple the enemy before gunning for objectives.

Why would I need troops with meltas if this is a mobile gunline? (PotMS will also keep everything firing even at 12 inch movement) i suppose I could try to fit a few meltas by dropping a HKM. I just imagine the Chain fist termiantors will be dealing with any heavy mech along with the MM Landspeeder as insurance. Most enemy AV should be suppressed.

Yes it is 3 scoring units BUT there is only 5 in each squad. Which is not very many guys. I guess you could say they do not need it but I personally love melta!!!

Sooooo which is stronger?

Is the offensive value of missile spam, with the 4 typhoons, greater than the defensive value of target saturation in the pred list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realized that Blood Angels could probably do these tactics better since their tanks are fast and cheaper.

Here's something I've been playing with.

It's not really fun or challenging.

EC Accept any Challenge

5x terminators 2x cyclone missile launchers tankhunters
5x terminators 2x cyclone missile launchers tankhunters
5x terminators 2x cyclone missile launchers tankhunters

3x Typhoon
3x Typhoon
3x Typhoon

5x Initiates 5x Neophytes Lascannon BP/CCW
5x Initiates 5x Neophytes Lascannon BP/CCW
5x Initiates 5x Neophytes Lascannon BP/CCW

2000pts.

Debating on switching the BP/CCW for bolters and shotguns but the preferred enemy and extra attacks.

my idea for 2000 points of bye bye opponent:

HQ

Castellan
Terminator Armour
90

Castellan
Terminator Armour
Auspex
92

Emperor’s Champion
Vow: Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch
110

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
210

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
210

ELITES

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96
HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator
125

Vindicator
125

you do realize that your TLLC RB+PothMS are Over 100 pts each!... Wow That is a lot to pay for AV11.

You are writing a list to max out on the first turn firepower, but what happens when you go second. You AV 11 will evaporate in a world of Long Fangs and Las/Plas Razors. Then your 15 scoring bodies will have to walk to objective. I do not think that BT do Razor Spam at all. Take a rhino maybe, but the DP are cheaper and can have your small scoring units arrive late protecting them, and drop on objectives. If you min troops, that is what I recommend.

To make BTs a powerful army you need to focus on what they have that is advantageous over other lists: cheap vehicles and super terminators.

Your troops are your biggest liability. Those Laszorbacks with all the extra kit are wasted points. Running them as las/plas squads means that roughly 40% of the time, they won't shoot what you want them to but at the closest target.

Run the troops as straight 5 man lazorback squads (IMO) and keep them cheap and few in number. You don't need lots of troops to win games, you just don't. A lot of top lists have 5-10 troop models in transports and win tournaments.

L.Cannon/A.Cannon preds for BTs are nothing special. The pred annihilator though, at 145, is sweet. Typhoons at 70 are amazing. Las cannon/DCCW/H.Flamer dreds at 135 are nice as well.

Shooty terminator squads pack in a lost of firepower into a powerful assault squad, but they still have "kill them all" to worry about. In my test games, every game a squad failed a "kill them all" test at a bad time. Therefore, I think to be truly competitive, you need to go mechanized and use assault terminators to crush people in combat.

For pure points efficiency then, focus on preds, typhoons, dreads, terminators. That gives you the most predictable and points efficient list.

Good luck with it. My test games so far have shown the BTs to be brutally good.

svendrex wrote:you do realize that your TLLC RB+PothMS are Over 100 pts each!... Wow That is a lot to pay for AV11.

You are writing a list to max out on the first turn firepower, but what happens when you go second. You AV 11 will evaporate in a world of Long Fangs and Las/Plas Razors. Then your 15 scoring bodies will have to walk to objective. I do not think that BT do Razor Spam at all. Take a rhino maybe, but the DP are cheaper and can have your small scoring units arrive late protecting them, and drop on objectives. If you min troops, that is what I recommend.

Hmmm i see your point. I suppose I am assuming that with the cover saves and PotMS, the AV will still be fireing.

Who knows anything about Tank hunting dreadnought with lascannons?

What could I get if I drop the HKMLs?

Corennus wrote:my idea for 2000 points of bye bye opponent:

HQ

Castellan
Terminator Armour
90

Castellan
Terminator Armour
Auspex
92

Emperor’s Champion
Vow: Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch
110

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
210

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
210

ELITES

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

Terminator Squad (5 man)
X 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers
250

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96

Crusader Squad (5 man) (5 Initiates)
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
96
HEAVY SUPPORT

Vindicator
125

Vindicator
125

I like the base for your list, but you did not factor in tank hunters for your cyclones, thus making them str 8 vs tanks, when 9 would help alot. I have run something similar minus a calestjian and his crew, and + tankhunters and 2 typhoons. But one of my termie squads were thunderhammer/storm shields too, very useful, even decent to drop beind lines and have a "you have to deal with this unit now or else" unit.

until 5th Edition Codex re-write I would have disputed that last comment you made about TH/SS terminator unit being a "you have to deal with this unit now or else" unit. a 5+ inv save in anything but CC means they'd be targeted by every big gun in the enemy army the second they deep striked.

Now of course things are a different story.