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Tyrant: wyrd necklace, heavy armor, gutmaw, anti-hero sword, fist full of laurels, luck gnoblar.
Slaughter Master: 4+ ward, blood cleaver, luck gnoblar

Core:
2x 17 bulls, bellower and standard
20 gnoblars
8 trappers

Specials:
2x Scrap launchers

Rares:
2x Gorgers


The tyrant leads bulls up the middle, supported on the inside by the 2nd horde with the Slaughtermaster.
The edge is covered by the scrap launchers (who advance firing).
Gorgers come in from behind to escort fleeing enemy off the table.
The Tyrant is geared up for challenges: 4+ armor, 5+ ward, 1 re-roll. He regains wounds in challenges and gets extra strength and attacks for enemy characters.
The Slaughtermaster is slightly geared to fight, because he will be in the front rank and likely to be fighting. A 4+ ward with 1 re-roll, and any wounds inflicted he recovers should keep him around for a while.
The single break test re-roll the tyrant show up with is to help off set the lack of BSB; which just can't be squeezed into the list at 2400 points, and still be survivable.

The plan is pretty strait forward. Advance two unstoppable walls of bulls and crush all in front. Use the 9.5" frontage to always redirect and try and blow through a flank, while the more choppy tyrant holds the center. Lobbing in 5" pie plates of killing blow helps thin anything "too deep", so I don't get stuck in fights for extended periods of time.


-Matt

Would love to see this. I'm a big fan of monstrous infantry in a horde; have not seen it done in person... with the exception of planning to do it myself

Can you fit in that BSB at 2500?

RiTides wrote:Would love to see this. I'm a big fan of monstrous infantry in a horde; have not seen it done in person... with the exception of planning to do it myself

Can you fit in that BSB at 2500?

I could squeeze in a BSB by dropping both gorgers, or dropping a scrap launcher.
My 7th edition experience (I ran a block of 10 and a block of 15), was that 2x scrap launchers and 2x gorgers were critical.
The Gorgers really act well as crowd control, and the scrap launchers can do horrendous damage, both with shooting, and with assisting in combat.
In 8th edition, the shooting gets better (no partials), the charging gets better (longer range means easier for impact hits), and melee gets way better (triple the attacks).

Really though, I'm not sure I need a BSB. The generals unit gets a re-roll once, and I'll deploy them so that the Slaughter Masters unit gets the softer go.
I did consider 12 Iron guts as the 2nd unit, with the gleaming pendant, but in the end, I'm happier with the 5 extra ogres, and just going with the plain old club.
I wouldn't bring in a BSB, unless I could put him into the armor of destiny with luck gnoblar, and I think that's around 210 points, and even then, I don't know if I need him.
A unit that's killing 15-20 models a turn doesn't usually need a BSB. Should I get the +1 strength spell off, that kill number shoots up quite a bit.


-Matt

Ah, Matt, now you're tempting me to try out something similar! I could totally do a unit of ogres and a unit of trolls like this with my WoC...

Problem is, it will be really easy for things to get into your flanks. Do you have any plan to counter-act that?

I don't know much about the Ogre army, but I can guess. I imagine that you'll protect your flanks with the Gorgers. What I like to know is; aren't you worried that you will be hit by a nasty magic fase? Did you have any specific army in mind, when you made the list?

First and foremost, go ahead and drop the Gorgers. The earliest they can impact the game is T3, and by then you'll already be in close combat (or have lost).

Ogres need a BSB in 8th. My personal advice would be to drop some of the gear on your Lords and give him a BoP or GW and Mawseeker. Frankly, Mawseeker should go on your Tyrant as well, since the BSB allows a reroll of the Stupidity test.

Aside from that, I prefer a second block of Gnoblars to the Trappers. The changes to march blocking really hurts Trappers and they wind up being 56 points wasted.

Seeing that across the board would make me p*** my self. Until 2-3 rounds of cannon fire/concerted Grudgery cut each unit in half. If I was playing DE, I would have only two targets to debuff and slay at my liesure. The only problem with these mega hordes is that they are only 2. 2 pants crappingly scary targets to concentrate fire on, rather than multiple ones. This lets my warmachines continue to hammer you with devastating effect round after round on the way in, rather than having to make the "ogre's choice" and risk shooting the wrong units at the wrong time.

Nagashek wrote:Seeing that across the board would make me p*** my self. Until 2-3 rounds of cannon fire/concerted Grudgery cut each unit in half. If I was playing DE, I would have only two targets to debuff and slay at my liesure. The only problem with these mega hordes is that they are only 2. 2 pants crappingly scary targets to concentrate fire on, rather than multiple ones. This lets my warmachines continue to hammer you with devastating effect round after round on the way in, rather than having to make the "ogre's choice" and risk shooting the wrong units at the wrong time.

A cannon has less than a 50% chance of killing a single Bull per shot, let alone 2 or more. Likewise, a Grudge Thrower is much less frightening now that only the center hit does D6 wounds.

To be perfectly frank, a single unit of 18 Ogres is more survivable against shooting than 3 units of 6, and if you take the Runemaw, much more survivable against magic.. The only spell a tooled-up Ogre horde really needs to worry about is Purple Sun.

RiTides wrote:Would love to see this. I'm a big fan of monstrous infantry in a horde; have not seen it done in person... with the exception of planning to do it myself

Can you fit in that BSB at 2500?

Ive seen this on many occasions and I assure you that its about the nastiest thing to deal with as all that comes before it dies. I normally just try to tie it up for a few rounds while my more elite troops beat down the rest of the army, but by the time this happens the game is already over and more often then not a draw.

So the real question I have, is at this level, is it better to have:

2 units of horde monstrous infantry

OR

1 unit of horde monstrous infantry, and 2 additional units of decent size (8-10)

I am thinking that for my army, the second option is better for the flexibility. I know Red_Zeke is a big proponent of multiple less-than-gigantic units, and Boss_Salvage is on principle. But this army list has me thinking about whether the first is in fact better (in a competitive environment, of course).

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:First and foremost, go ahead and drop the Gorgers. The earliest they can impact the game is T3, and by then you'll already be in close combat (or have lost).

Ogres need a BSB in 8th. My personal advice would be to drop some of the gear on your Lords and give him a BoP or GW and Mawseeker. Frankly, Mawseeker should go on your Tyrant as well, since the BSB allows a reroll of the Stupidity test.

Aside from that, I prefer a second block of Gnoblars to the Trappers. The changes to march blocking really hurts Trappers and they wind up being 56 points wasted.

You're dead wrong on the gorgers. They can show up turn 2, and the "proper" use isn't charging, but taking away flee space. If you're 25mm based, and 4 deep, you have a 4" deep foot print.
When you flee the charge of the oncoming ogre horde, if you hit the gorger, you pop through him, and must go 1" past. If I'm less than 5" for the table edge, that pushes you off the table. Effectively, that gorger just killed a whole unit.
If you don't roll high enough to hit the gorger, you're likely to get caught by the charging bulls.
My actual experience (not theory hammer) is that you can eliminate the "sweet spot" where it's safe to flee.
Once Flee = Death, the other option is to stand and fight. That usually results in the unit breaking (~20 kills a round from the horde) and again, you've got the gorger in the rear to bounce you off the table should escape the ogres pursuit.
More so, with the gorger to bounce fleeing units, you don't even need to pursue. Instead you can restrain and reform, giving you another tactical option.

As for the Trappers; they are 48 points, not 56. Yeah, they suck and don't do much, but neither do gnoblars.
I will gladly pay 8 points more to dice off for scouts. If I win, the gnoblars do something fantastic. They take away a scouting location from my opponent, AND block Vanguard movements.
In an army with fewer units, that alone is worth a lot more than an 8 point upgrade.

If I find that I don't have enough magic defense with the level 4, I can always swap the 2nd horde for ~10 iron guts with Rune Maw, swap the Slaughtermasters weapon for a dispel scroll, and upgrade the tyrant to a Greatskull.
I've yet to see magic as a huge problem for ogres though. They move so fast they are typically in combat on turn 2, and with my 6 deployments, I'm very likely to get the +1 to go first.
You might only have a 2nd magic phase before things start to get very ugly.

I've got an alternate build with 3 blocks of 18 at 2400 points, but I'm betting that scrap launchers and the gorger bounce is more important.

-Matt

Clever work with the gorgers. I've been able to use a gyro to achieve a similar thing, though I imagine foes are more likely to flee from bull ogre hordes than dwarf warriors. It becomes especially important late game at making sure the unit fights, rather than runs in the very last turn to deny VPs.

I do think you're living on the edge without the BSB- certain effects force a panic check, and while leadership 9 is good, 9 with a re-roll is a lot more comfortable.

On the magic front, I think your biggest concern will be shadow magic, though I could be wrong. If a big block of (for example) dark elf spearmen gets a significant boost (be it you withered, them mindrazored, or to a lesser extent, you miasma-ed or enfeebled), then the jig is probably up. Hopefully the scrap launcher(s) can help out in reducing those large units.

Interested to see how it goes- I tend to think that massive units are going to roll someone who can't handle them or have a hard time of it if someone has the tools to divert.

I've found that ogre hordes aren't all that easy to divert.
More often than not, diverting units are killed to the man, so I don't need to test to reform.
The shape of an ogre horde, over 9" wide, gives me a lot of freedom when charging; which end of my horde to put into combat, while still maximizing. The reform usually will leave my flanks safe and line me up where I wanted to be all along.

Panic is a bit of an issue; but most common causes for panic (25% loss, nearby unit broken, and nearby unit wiped out), are very tough to do against this build.
Outside of spells that always panic, I'm not to worried.

I think my biggest problem will be terrain. A few spots of quicksand will thin down my blocks quite fast. Ethereal creatures can also bring this to a screeching halt, but I've found that to be the case with most ogre builds.

I've also got a trick or two up my sleeve. If the horde formation doesn't seem idea, I can go 3 wide and 6 deep; which will almost always strip steadfast; give me +3 rank bonus, along with the standard and more often than not charging. The flexibility to shift between the two is great.

As for the BSB, I could downgrade the slaughtermaster to butch to squeeze him in, but I really like the 12" range on the spells. I'm not as stuck keeping the two blocks near each other.


I wish I had gyrocopters, they'd work out a lot better than the gorgers, as they can do something while on escort duty. Then again, gorgers are a lot cheaper, so I guess I get what I pay for.

-Matt

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:

Nagashek wrote:Seeing that across the board would make me p*** my self. Until 2-3 rounds of cannon fire/concerted Grudgery cut each unit in half. If I was playing DE, I would have only two targets to debuff and slay at my liesure. The only problem with these mega hordes is that they are only 2. 2 pants crappingly scary targets to concentrate fire on, rather than multiple ones. This lets my warmachines continue to hammer you with devastating effect round after round on the way in, rather than having to make the "ogre's choice" and risk shooting the wrong units at the wrong time.

A cannon has less than a 50% chance of killing a single Bull per shot, let alone 2 or more. Likewise, a Grudge Thrower is much less frightening now that only the center hit does D6 wounds.

To be perfectly frank, a single unit of 18 Ogres is more survivable against shooting than 3 units of 6, and if you take the Runemaw, much more survivable against magic.. The only spell a tooled-up Ogre horde really needs to worry about is Purple Sun.

Each cannon hit has a 5/9 chance of killing an ogre, which is greater than 50%. Unless you are counting the possibility of the misfiring cannon, in which case I was counting on Dwarven cannons. Each Grudge thrower may only kill the ogre under it, but it hits 8 other ogres. With no buffs, those grudge throwers are still inflicting a wound 1/3 of the time. So that's 8/3 wounds, which comes to 2 2/3 wounds, which is nearly an ogre itself. Increase the S of the GT by only one, and you're now doing 4 additional wounds besides the one under the hole. So if you are taking 3 rounds of shooting before you hit the opponants lines, and each WM can kill on average a little less than 2 ogres per turn, 4 wm (like I run in my list) That could be 24 ogres total. On average. Less, when you figure some misfires and other issues. So let us say only 18 ogres killed. That's still my entire army vs effectively half of yours. I'll take those odds.

And Purple Sun is not your only problem. An empire army with a similar WM layout and a single shadow mage will ruin your day. Lower your M or T value and your whole army could be blown away before you arrive. And Pit of Shades is just as effective as PS. Since there are only two major targets, you focus fire on one, remove it's danger level, then repeat on the other. Many units can spread that harm around. I'm only saying it LOOKS scary as hell, but anyone who keeps their head and has access to shadow or death and shooting can shut you down.

I'm just gonna' jump in here real quick: monstrous infantry still bounce their wounds around so that, for bulls, 3 wounds = one dead ogre, right?
I ask because of the war machine thing above; a cannon hits three ogres, wounds three ogres, and does two wounds each. That equals two dead ogres, right?

Matt: I'm not sure what you're saying about 18 being more durable than 3 units of 6. Are you talking about panic from 25%? That's about the only thing I can really imagine, but I'd say that the three smaller units more than make up for this by presenting multiple targets.
A straight-on cannon shot, or an on-target stone thrower will hit less guys in a unit of 6. A Big Spell will force 6 tests, rather than 18. Etc.

Assuming that you lose the same number of guys either way, having multiple units is still less of a gamble; you'll probably have at least one unit that can still negate ranks, and you'r still getting the same number of attacks (well, possibly more impact hits at a lower S).

I think that these hordes can and do work, though. I just think that it's more of a "live fast, die hard" sort of style. You'll either crush them or be crushed. With multiple smaller units, you'll probably win and lose softer.

I don't like completely destroying my opponent, with him helplessly looking on as I decimate his army, and I certainly don't like it the other way 'round, too. But I'm not about to say that this sort of thing doesn't work, tactically speaking.

I think two hordes are just as viable as one and three units of 6, or twelve units of 6, for that matter. Multiple smaller units would need a BSB more. These big units seem to be more of a gamble. I'd call it a wash.

Horde Advantages:
Wider front: When redirecting, you have ~9.5" of front to measure the charge from. Since the wheel on the charge is free, wider gives you more charge range out to the sides.
More Attacks: With the 3rd rank fighting, you get more bang for you buck. Horde vs 2 smaller units will pretty much always result with the horde taking an additional 50% attacks.
Gut Magic: Gut magic stacks. It's easier to buff (and repeatedly re-buff) 1 unit of 18 than 3 units of 6.
Impact Hits: that 3rd rank makes the impact hits S6.
Hero Support: Ogre heroes are too expensive to place on in each large unit.
Rank Breaking: 6 ogres very quickly lose their ability to strip ranks.
Few Placements: you're very likely to get the +1 to go first.

Disadvantages:
Eggs in 1 basket: A 600 point unit is a big chunk of change.
Flanks: So few units on the table can make terrain dictate how you cover your flank.
No Body Guard: If you don't want your characters in combat, you don't have a lot of options left on where to hide them.
MSU: If your opponent went MSU, you'll have a hard time picking up a lot of points, a draw is very likely.
Rank Breaking: With few units, it will be tough to line up a flank charge.
Few Placements: You'll likely be fully deployed before your opponent put down anything of value.

I think that about covers it.
MSU ogres work (I like a unit of 8, two 6's and some 4 man units); but it isn't the only way.
I think a 3rd theme is possible too, and I'll post that soon.
Because each type of build requires different tactics to defeat, I think it's good to mix it up some of the time. It keeps your opponents from getting too used to your play style.

-Matt

Warpsolution: I think you are forgetting that if a cannonball fails to kill the first model it hits it stops dead. So you will likely only get 1 ogre taking damage from it (2/3 of the time you are not doing enough to kill).

I also think the more survivable aspect lives and dies by the horde almost never giving up full points unless it is run down after lost combat. Putting say 1000 points into a big fat unit means that until you kill the last wound, you get zero, as opposed to 1000 points in 4 units, where you get 250 points at periodic steps. Basically you can introduce larger discontinuities into the points gain of your opponent, leaving them with nothing.
There was a tournament batrep on here a bit ago that had a WOC player going REALLY character heavy, and doing well because you couldn't kill enough to make your points back. Very surprising from looking at the list too.

Yeah, I have a hard time with the cannon thing- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (not dying from a cannonball is due to it not hitting you in the chest. Nobody takes a hit from a cannon to the gut and somehow absorbs the shot. Glancing blows, sure, but that would mean a little more carnage).

That makes enough sense. Point-denial can work; but I generally define "survivable" as "able to not die", not "less likely to give up points". Still, these huge units have something going for them.

Warpsolution wrote:Nobody takes a hit from a cannon to the gut and somehow absorbs the shot.

This is actually one of my favorite things about 8th . Cannons are already pretty beefy, so stopping a ball mid-flight in a troll/ogre/giant/shaggoth/etc gut is pretty satisfying!

I can vouch for that. And I can almost buy it, when it's a Monster (especially the A-bomb...that thing just looks like it could absorb a few cannonballs in its squishy mass). Not so much when one of my Rat Ogres catches it in his claws and spikes it into the dirt.

...not that cannons need a boost or anything.