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I am just getting into Fantansy after a fifteen year hiatus. I've opted to go for the Warriors of Chaos, have put together a fair number of models, but have not yet played a game or much absorbed the rules.

Two questions:

1). What do you all think of Tzeentch Chosen as my "tarpit" unit? I was thinking of about 25 with shields, perhaps accompanied by a Warshine or two.

2). Rules-wise, if I have a shield and the Mark of Tzeentch, does that mean I'm allowed a 5+ ward save in combat? And, if I am so lucky as to role on the Gift-of-the-Gods for the +4 ward save (double 6's), does that mean I would be gifted a 2+ ward save in combat?

1) They would be an excellent tarpit unit or any kind of unit. I might suggest giving them halberds too.

2) You are correct in your assumptions. One trick that some see as being shady is to give your champion the favor of the gods item and taking the waling banner (causes terror). This lets your chosen unit reroll most of their results on the chart. I think the only results you have to keep are 4 and 5 which are +1 str or attacks. not bad ones to be stuck with.

@ Boogeyman,

Hahahaha, your trick, while shady, is also very expensive point-wise!

Were you not planning on using a champion, musician, and standard bearer? It would be getting pretty expensive if you weren't.

I would also suggest that 25 chosen is probably too many. If you dropped 5 of them, you could come closer to paying for the trick. The two magic items cost less than 3 chosen, I believe. (don't have my books with me)

boogeyman wrote: If you dropped 5 of them, you could come closer to paying for the trick. The two magic items cost less than 3 chosen, I believe. (don't have my books with me)

Good point; five models would be about one hundred points. I believe that the terror banner is around 135, but I also don't have my supplement with me. What were the magic items you had mentioned?

thunderingjove wrote:@ Boogeyman,

Hahahaha, your trick, while shady, is also very expensive point-wise!

Expensive yes, but who wouldn't be willing to pay 75 points for a 3+ ward on their unit. the cost doesn't increase with the number of models.

even if you don't get the 3++ ward, a choice between +1 T, A, Str, or Armor isn't a bad deal. and you cause Terror in the bargain.

Grey Templar wrote:Even if you don't get the 3++ ward, a choice between +1 T, A, Str, or Armor isn't a bad deal. and you cause Terror in the bargain.

Hum, I think you have me largely convinced, although let it be said that the increase of leadership is less impressive. Any suggests how to model that terror banner? It would have to be pretty impressive/original/ironic.

Hey, the Chosen with MoT + Shield + Divine Greatness (4+ ward save) = 2+ ward save, right?

No, Ward Saves don't stack and the MoT either gives a 6+ ward OR improves an existing one.

Parry is an existing ward. so is the 4+ gained from Divine Greatness.

Grey Templar wrote:No, Ward Saves don't stack and the MoT either gives a 6+ ward OR improves an existing one.

Parry is an existing ward. so is the 4+ gained from Divine Greatness.

Gotcha. Still pretty good.

IMO The best way to do it would be 6 X 4 Chosen MOT, hand weapon and shield, Wailing Banner, Full Command, Favor of the Gods Magic item and two warshrines. If you cant manage a 12 with that you shouldnt be rolling dice. My math may be off but I think its about 840 total for everything. You will usually have at least as many or more ranks to maintain steadfast and still max out on attacks. Stupid puny elves and their little tiny bases.

USCGME1 wrote:IMO The best way to do it would be 6 X 4 Chosen MOT, hand weapon and shield, Wailing Banner, Full Command, Favor of the Gods Magic item and two warshrines.

You don't need that second warshrine, pretty sure probability has you hitting 12 by Turn 2 at the very latest. Spend your 130-150 points on a unit that actually does something in the game. And I agree with the Pug, definitely go with halberds, especially if you're dropping the points in to get that 3+ ward ASAP. 3+ armor and parry become pretty meaningless in the face of that ward, and S5 is way more frightening than S4 ... you know, before you add +1S for the chosen's gift

- Salvage

Yeah, if your all about the Chosenstar, then Halberds are a go.

Honestly, this is one of the sickest concepts I've ever seen crop up in Warhammer. A unit. With a 3+ Ward save.

I faced a block of these guys at 1000pts. Not fun.

As for how expensive this is, I don't think that's really a problem. It's not like your going to lose those points any time soon. This stupid trick doesn't have to make it's points back, it just needs to kill some of your guys.

The worst is that they have so few weaknesses. Relatively high S, I, and T means the "test or die" spells won't have a big enough effect on them before they trash your forces. Really, the Curse of the Horned Rat is the only thing I can think of to really put a dent in them. Goblins and Slaves can tarpit them, for about two turns, but even that will give your opponent points, if you have to do it two or more times.

also, since Chosen are a Special choice you can dump 1/2 your points in the section so the expense isn't a problem.

an army of a couple chosen Blocks with some Marauders running the Core count up to minimum could be interesting. too bad you can't duplicate Favor of the Gods.

Two shrines wouldn't be a bad choice, at that point. Khornate flailrauders and Tzeentch Chosenstars. Efficiency and point denial.

Thematically, I'm sticking with Tzeentch. Any modeling suggestions for Marauders and warriors and warriors-cum-chosen.

Marauders can still do the 5+ ward in CC thing with shields. it actually makes maruders pretty survivable for being so cheap.


any of the weapon upgrades will do decently. great weapons seem to be the most popular, although that seems to be Khorne players mostly.

Tzeench should probably milk that +1 to ward save as much as possable. cheap Tzeench sword n board marauders can form a nice tarpit unit.


a unit of 50 with command and MoT will run 290 points. 50 models with 6+ armor and 6+(5+) ward will be tough for even enemy elite troops to hack through.

you could easily afford 2 or even 3 such units depending on army size. either in Horde or Bus formation will be nasty.

The unit will do well in most games against most opponents, but do fear anything that denies you saves of any kind, including characteristic tests.

As far as I know, that leaves Skaven, who will undoubtedly risk a miscast to kill off 4d6 of your Chosen. Average there is 14 I think, if the spell goes off, which it likely will if they burn a power scroll.

Yeah, I have to figure out magic in my grand strategy. Thanks for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey, I've been looking for "Gift of the Gods" in the supplement and in the rulebook without any luck. Reference help, please.

it's under Arcane Items in the WoC book IIRC.

down towards the bottom.

favor of the gods (the magic item) is pg 115 of the WoC army book.

eye of the gods is pg 43. I think this is what you are looking for. It is the chart that the chosen roll on.

and all your characters when they kill a character or monster.

Gotcha. Knew about Eye, couldn't find Gift. Thanks.

For the same cost of the chosen of tzeench (with wailing banner), you can drop down 80 marauders of tzeench, with light armor and shield.
If all you want to do is tar pit, I think you'll have more luck with marauders.
If you want to Death Star, go chosen of tzeench.

-Matt

Yes, the Chosen are your hammer unit while the marauders tie down enemy elites in combats they just can't win quickly.

the marauders are no slouches either and can actually kill things.

What about warriors of Tzeentch and knights of Tzeentch?

Warriors can run second string to the chosen.

Chosen in center, warriors on either side, marauders on the sides of the warriors like below.

Marauders, Warriors, Chosen, Warriors, Marauders.




Knights of Tzeench are decent dispite the parry. i give them the Blasted Standard so they get a 4+ ward against shooting. in CC, most things won't be getting rid of that 1+ armor and you still have a 6+ ward.

Here is the list that I am currently, and very slowly, building.


L: Demon Prince - MoT, level 3, third eye, roar = 480

H: Exalted Hero - MoT, BSB, bronze armor, talisman of endurance, shield = 195

C: 18 Warriors - MoT, musician, standard bearer, shields, Rapturous Standard = 346
C: 30 Marauders - MoK, musician, standard bearer, flails = 192
C: 30 Marauders - MoK, musician, standard bearer, gw = 192
C: 7 Warhounds = 42

S: 17 Chosen - MoT, command, halberds, favor, Wailing banner = 448
S: 6 Chaos Knights - MoK, musician, standard bearer, Blasted Standard = 340

R: Warshrine = 130
R: Warshrine = 130

Total = 2495

I think if I wanted to be more competitive I would go with a level 4 sorcerer on a disk instead of the DP and try to fit in a hellcannon instead of 2 warshrines. I am also tempted to switch all my units to MoT. I think I would use gors for my marauders too. (gives me an excuse to start a beastmen army later ). I think I would also give my chaos knights the banner of rage instead of the blasted standard as well.

Maybe that will give you some ideas.

yeah, the level 4 would probably be better then the Prince.

As much as i would love for Tzeench deamon princes to be viable. i think they are a little expensive for what you get.


they can't join units, have no armor save, only get a 4+ ward at best(MoT) and lose a point of Ld to Chaos Lords.

a Level 3 with MoT will run you 435 points. you could get a tooled out Level 4 Sorceror for far cheaper that has a 4+ armor, 3+ ward, assorted Chaos gifts, and isn't much less durable. you drop your Str, wounds, and T by only one and he can hide in units.


the only Deamon prince i could see running is either a Khorne or unmarked guy tooled out for CC and no magic powers.

Agreed. The Prince is a hard character to justify. But just. So. Cool.

Tzeentch Marauders would actually be pretty decent, now that you mention it. Probably the equal of their Khornate friends.

The bizarre thing about the Chosen is that, sure, they're killy, but they've got the best save in the game. If, for some reason, there's something they can't kill, it isn't likely to take them down, either. Some Wraiths would be obnoxious, but even then, you could easily have a mess of points locked safely away in that combat, and win through denial.
The save or die spells are bad news for any big unit, but this one has the least to fear from it. Their stats are just so good! The Dreaded 13th works against them, but at larger point levels, 4d6 doesn't matter as much, compared to what people are fielding (50 Tzeentch Chosen, anyone?).

One thing I did want to point out that I thought was interesting:

I did some Mathhammer, and it really seems like the Marks of Nurgle and Tzeentch are basically even. The odds of an extra +1 on your Ward versus a -1 to hit are the same. The only difference I can see is that Nurgle is better off being shot by devices that use BS, and Tzeentch is better at taking hits from artillery.

So, all in all, I'd say Tzeentch is better, since artillery is more common (due to it being better) than archers and the like, but the difference isn't really that much.

So...Nurgle Chosenstar?

I would say that Tzeentch also has the one up in CC too. If your opponent has a decent enough WS the -1 to WS won't make a difference and the ward bonus is better in all situations imo. It's also a cheaper mark.