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First and foremost, can I use Precognisant to pull units out of reserve?

Second and foreleast, how does Precognisant interact with Dawn of War deployment? I don't necessarily have to deploy anything, but I don't necessarily have to put anything I don't deploy into reserve. If I plonk down M'Lady and some Warriors in a Raider, can I then yoink them off the table and slate them to come on in turn one?

I suppose in the former's case you could say no, because with reserved units you're not actually "deploying" them per se; you're putting them in reserve. That's a technicality though, and isn't convincing enough for me to call shenanigans on an opponent who wanted to do it. Or to stop me doing it myself. Second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth opinions would be nice.

I can't see any good reason to argue against the latter; you 'may deploy up to' two Troops and one HQ. You 'may' deploy nothing and have the whole shebang come on from the board edge during turn one. You 'may' reserve everything. If I deploy one HQ and two Troops units (i.e the aforementioned Warriors in a Raider with attached Malys) on the board, I can, thanks to the Precognisant rule, choose to redeploy them; which in a DoW scenario entails me taking them off the board so they arrive during my turn one. Or, as per the special rule, putting them in reserve.

One (technical, and thus unconvincing) argument against is that, for DoW deployment purposes, the unit I mention actually counts as three units; one HQ unit, one Troops unit, and the transport as another Troops unit - this is significant because Malys only gets to redeploy D3 units, so if you roll 1-4 you won't have enough mojo to shift them all.

My counter is that Dawn of War deployment is an exception to the normal mechanics of 40k; in all other pertinent circumstances the unit counts as a single unit, and so when I'm dicing for the Precognisant special rule it's a foregone thing.

Again though, more opinions would be nice. Just... try to stay clear of the old English comprehension dissertations these threads tend to degenerate into.

You may "redeploy" up to D3 units; REserves is *instead of* deploying, so you can neither put them into reserve (or DoW reserve-lite) nor take them out of it - you can only shuffle units around that are on the table.

Nos, i believe Lady Malys has a clause along the lines of allowing you to place the affected units into reserves.
However it does not mention taking units in reserve and deploying them normally, and DoW deployment just hurts my head...

But if you go along with the FAQ ruling on Divination (essentially the same thing, except its D3+1 units and no mention of reserves) then if you move a transport the occupants go with it and only count as moving one unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You may "redeploy" up to D3 units; REserves is *instead of* deploying, so you can neither put them into reserve (or DoW reserve-lite) nor take them out of it - you can only shuffle units around that are on the table.

There is, like dayve110 says, a clause in the Precognisant rule itself that says you can put units INTO reserve.

As to the actual topic, the argument that you place units in reserve INSTEAD of deploying them is, like I said, a technicality. The unit isn't 'deployed' per se, and so it can't be 're-deployed', but this understanding of the term 'deployment' as 'arranging forces for activity' is drawn from basic English rather than the 40k ruleset (which doesn't define 'deploy' or 'deployment').

THis leads me to believe that Precognisizing units from reserve is not strictly kosher, but because it isn't based on 40k's game mechanics but rather my understanding of the language in which the rules are written it wouldn't be convincing enough to tell an opponent not to do it, nor would it be enough for me to bar it from happening in an event I was running.

If anyone can come up with something more solid and which, crucially, is based on the game's mechanics rather than an interminable argument from language comprehension, I'm all ears. Otherwise I've got to take the view that, while it is a bit dodgy, it's not essentially evil and so it's not essentially something to worry about.

dayve110 wrote:However it does not mention taking units in reserve and deploying them normally, and DoW deployment just hurts my head...

But if you go along with the FAQ ruling on Divination (essentially the same thing, except its D3+1 units and no mention of reserves) then if you move a transport the occupants go with it and only count as moving one unit.

That's the problem though; Divination and Precognisant are two different things, albeit two different things that are the same in all but name (except Precognisant is better because, y'know... Spiky Elf wenches and all that), so you can't really use the specifics for one to draw conclusions about the specifics for the other.

If you could, my Grey Knight Terminators would all have Holocaust, 3++ Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers, and would thus be awesome. They don't, though :(

The pertinent argument is that only for the purposes of DoW deployment selections is my unit thought of as three seperate units; for any and all other game purposes that I can think of, it counts as a single unit. Therefore, when applying the Precognisant rule, it's a single unit.

You could, however, extend this further...

Say I'm playing a DoW mission and I deploy the Warriors with m'Lady in their Raider on the table and slate everything else in my army to arrive on turn one from my board edge. The opponent does his Scout moves, whoever is going second tries to Seize The Initiative, and once all that's done I roll my D3 for Lady Malys and get a 5 or a 6.

I can now redeploy 3 units. Since deployment is all done (Scout moves have been made, the Seize roll has been made) and we're about to start the first turn, can I ignore the usual DoW deployment rules and, instead of just deploying the one HQ and two Troops, take Malys' unit off the table and put three Ravagers on?

I'd say no. I'd have a hard time backing it up with anything solid, though.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Say I'm playing a DoW mission and I deploy the Warriors with m'Lady in their Raider on the table and slate everything else in my army to arrive on turn one from my board edge. The opponent does his Scout moves, whoever is going second tries to Seize The Initiative, and once all that's done I roll my D3 for Lady Malys and get a 5 or a 6.

I can now redeploy 3 units. Since deployment is all done (Scout moves have been made, the Seize roll has been made) and we're about to start the first turn, can I ignore the usual DoW deployment rules and, instead of just deploying the one HQ and two Troops, take Malys' unit off the table and put three Ravagers on?

I'd say no. I'd have a hard time backing it up with anything solid, though.

No because of the following rules.
First, the BRB rule on page 93 under Dawn of War says that after the deployment of 2 troops and 1 HQ, after infiltrate and after all scout moves the game starts. It is at this point that all units that were not deployed and weren't placed in reserve enter the game on your first turn in their Movement phase.
Lady Malys rule says you can redeploy D3 units after both sides have deployed.
You could therefore only redeploy the units that were deployed before the first turn.
Since the ravager had not been deployed, and in DoW could not be deployed because it is neither a HQ nor a troop selection, you could not use Lady Malys' rule to deploy it.
In your question, your options (if you roll a 5 or 6) would be:
Place the raider witht he warriors and Malys into reserve,
Redeploy the raider and embarked units together,
Redeploy the raider and the warriors in one spot and Malys somewhere else,
Redeploy the raider empty and the warriors (with or without Malys) somewhere else.

In no case could you "replace" a deployed unit with any other unit because that is not "redeploying".

1) an embarked unit and their vehicle are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS two separate units. Otherwise you have to maintain coherency with your vehicle (impossible when off the table, as you can only measure to the unit and not to models as required by coherency rules) and you must move at the speed of the slowest model in the unit - meaning all transporters are limited to 6" (or 12" with a stormraven, jump packs and no dread)

SO get that idea out of your head, it confuses things!

2) You are told you are performing action A instead of deploying. You then want to re-deploy, but units that have taken action A cannot re-deploy as they never deployed.

So you cannot pull them out of reserves, as I already said.

If you havea clause allowing them to go into reserves then great - you can do so. But you couldnt put them into DoW reserves-lite, and you couldnt pull units out of reserve and onto the table.

I'd find it hard to argue (without feeling like a total ) that, with Eldrad i can reposition a wave serpent as one choice... along with the unit inside along with 2 IC... still all counting as 1 choice btw.
Then when my DE opponent repositions their units and chooses to move a raider... along with the unit inside along with an IC... it counts as 3.

Well the IC isnt a separate unit - page 49 states that. So that cuts it down to 2.

But yes, barring an errata / FAQ, if you want to move a vehicle + embarked unit you use up 2 of your allowed redeployments.

So to clarify, if I understand what you are saying Nos. Do you mean that if Lady Malys (while embarked in a raider with 9 warriors) were to only be able to redeploy 1 unit, and the owning player chose to redeploy the raider, that Lady M and the warrior squad would have to disembark? Wouldn't that also technically be redeploying? Seems unnecessary and troublesome.

It seems more likely that the raider cannot be redeployed since that would require redeploying the embarked units as well.

That would be assumption however. The only thing I see as a real issue is that DoW demands an HQ and two troops be on the board at the end of deployment. Yet Lady M's rule allows those deployed units to be placed back into reserve. So either way you have to assume that the units must stay on the board or they are allowed to be placed back into reserves leaving the owning player with nothing on the board until his turn 1. It really comes down to a roll-off, or a house rule or preferably an FAQ by GW.

I had read that as meaning in DoW she can just re-deploy them on the table, though.

Still a rather nice advantage and no rules are broken.

Did I miss something?

If you rolled to redeploy 1 unit, why couldn't you place Malys and the Warriors where the Raider is and redeploy the Raider somewhere else, or place it in reserve for that matter?
All dedicated transports can be deployed or placed in reserve carrying the unit they were selected with or empty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:I had read that as meaning in DoW she can just re-deploy them on the table, though.

Still a rather nice advantage and no rules are broken.

Did I miss something?

Her precognisant rule says she can redeploy D3 units including placing them in reserve.
So in DoW, with the right roll she could put all the deployed units in reserve.
Would still have had to have declared the rest of the army either coming on turn 1 or going into reserve because her rule kicks in after both sides have deployed.

First :The unit(s) inside deployed into the raider. . .perhaps that is not correct?

Second: DoW requires the HQ and 2 troops to be deployed...I misread part of it and thought they had to be deployed when it starts. Seems to be fine to deploy the 3 units and then re-deploy them into reserves. I knew the rule let her put them into reserves, but I had thought the DoW required them to start, not just be deployed.

kirsanth wrote:First :The unit(s) inside deployed into the raider. . .perhaps that is not correct?

They actually deployed embarked in the raider. Quite a difference.
The raider is a unit in its own right and can deploy either empty or with the unit that selected it.
If the warriors deployed in the raider, that would make the raider more like a building and less like a transport vehicle.

Ok, but if they deploy in the raider. . .and the raider is re-deployed, are they re-deployed if it is?

Actually, in DoW, you don't have to deploy two troops and an HQ, you can deploy UP TO that amount. Or so it states in the deployment rules.

Malys' rule states you can put them back into reserve if you choose, and honestly, I wouldn't fight with anyone if they wanted to bring something out of reserve, even though it states that reserves are "deployed" when they pass their roll. I would, however, not let someone put a Ravager on the board with the Precognisant rule in a DoW mission.

Galador wrote:Actually, in DoW, you don't have to deploy two troops and an HQ, you can deploy UP TO that amount. Or so it states in the deployment rules.

Yea, that was the part I misread.

Oddly, outside of special rules relating to it, I actually knew this.

kirsanth wrote:Ok, but if they deploy in the raider. . .and the raider is re-deployed, are they re-deployed if it is?

I would think if you are redeploying, you can do whatever you would do under normal deployment, including deploy the dedicated transport empty.
It's just the question of what to do with the embarked unit, which I think would be satisfied if it was left where the transport was.
Think of it this way, if I could only redeploy 1 unit, and had a unit of warriors embarked in a raider, couldn't I now place the warriors somewhere else in the deployment zone leaving the raider where it was?
Pretty much the same thing, no?

kirsanth wrote:

Galador wrote:Actually, in DoW, you don't have to deploy two troops and an HQ, you can deploy UP TO that amount. Or so it states in the deployment rules.

Yea, that was the part I misread.

Oddly, outside of special rules relating to it, I actually knew this.

We all do it. For a while I was making the stupid mistake of confusing Turboboost with Flat out and moving my raiders 18" and still disembarking cause in Turboboost you have to move over 18" to get the save. Boy did I feel stupid when someone finally pointed it out, along with all the other guys that used to watch me do it and never noticed lol.

time wizard wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Ok, but if they deploy in the raider. . .and the raider is re-deployed, are they re-deployed if it is?

I would think if you are redeploying, you can do whatever you would do under normal deployment, including deploy the dedicated transport empty.
It's just the question of what to do with the embarked unit, which I think would be satisfied if it was left where the transport was.
Think of it this way, if I could only redeploy 1 unit, and had a unit of warriors embarked in a raider, couldn't I now place the warriors somewhere else in the deployment zone leaving the raider where it was?
Pretty much the same thing, no?

Pretty much, but it also very much re-deploying more than one unit--as I read it.

kirsanth wrote:Pretty much, but it also very much re-deploying more than one unit--as I read it.

Could go either way I guess, the warriors are now changing their deployment as well, deploying on the table rather than embarked.

Ok, that was the basis of my initial reply.

What makes it even more confusing is that Malys Precognisant is very similar to Ulthuan's Divination, and from the Eldar FAQ:

Q. When Eldrad Ulthuan’s Divination is used to move
a vehicle with an embarked unit onboard, does this
count as having moved two units or just one?
A. One. Embarked units do not count towards the
Divination total.

So Malys' rule is just another one to be added to the necessary Dark Eldar FAQ update!

My point also.

So if you follow the Divination logic, if you have a raider with a unit of warriors and Lady Malys embarked, you can redeploy the raider and all embarked no matter what you roll.
Hmmmmm.

That would be my assumption.

Gadzooks!

It seems everyone agrees on this one. . .

Quick, get a dissenting opinion!

kirsanth wrote:
Quick, get a dissenting opinion!

I disagree, I don't think we need a dissenting opinion!

Trying to reconstruct some reasoning for the Eldar FAQ answer, I think that the reasoning is:

You take your unit and your transport, and you deploy them. You put the transport on one side of the table, and you deploy the unit "embarked in that transport". If you redeploy the transport, the unit's still deployed exactly as it was, "embarked in that transport", so you've only changed one thing.

But it'd be nice to see in the FAQ one way or the other.