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As long as they stay in the transport, yeah, that's what we'd be saying.

It's counter-intuitive to me too, but if we read it that way Eldrad's ruling makes more sense.

I find it hard to believe that such a big case is being made for occupants + transports needing a 2 or 3 rolled, but a unit with an IC attached needs only 1.

An IC is deployed with a unit, but it's still deployed. If you redeploy the unit, you'd have to redeploy the IC following the same logic.

If, however, being deployed with the unit is the actual "deployment" or the IC, then redeploying the unit would affect both of them. If that's the case, then redeploying a vehicle would be allowed because the deployment of the unit inside has not changed (it is still being deployed embarked inside the transport).

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

Let's instead pretend I used a less contentious example; let's say I have a squad of Warriors with Lady Malys attached to it. Can I use Lady Malys' rule to redeploy this unit off the table in a DoW mission?

As far as I am concerned, yes. The rule allows it.

kirsanth wrote:So, models are deployed with a transport, but do not count as re-deployed when the transport is?

I think it makes more sense if they are.
When you deploy a unit in a transport, the unit can only disembark from the transport in its movement phase (except if forced by combat results).
Also, the rules say when you place a transport in reserve, you specify if it is carrying any infantry units. If it is, the transport and the unit are rolled for arrival together and placed on the table together.
So even though they are 2 separate units, they are 'together' when the infantry unit and/or transport is deployed.
As I brought out in an earlier post, the Divination rule is close to Lady Malys' precognisant.
And in that rule, a transport and any units it is carrying are considered one unit for redeployment purposes.
I think the easiest solution is to follow this for Lady Malys' rule.

I removed the offending passage and apologise for any offence caused.

time wizard wrote:

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Let's instead pretend I used a less contentious example; let's say I have a squad of Warriors with Lady Malys attached to it. Can I use Lady Malys' rule to redeploy this unit off the table in a DoW mission?

Consensus says no, but I'm still interested in hearing any other viewpoints that might arise, and having the thread derailed into a debate about how many units the transport and it's embarked unit should count as is not conducive to that.

In this case I believe you can. The latest FAQ says you can nominate an IC to join a unit prior to deployment.
The rules say that an IC can only leave a unit during its movement phase.
Lady Malys rule says the DE player can redeploy D3 units including placing them in reserve.
In this case, since Lady Malys joined with the Warriors prior to deployment, they are a single unit and can be redeployed together if desired.
In fact, they can only be redeployed or placed in reserve together because the IC cannot leave the unit until its movement phase.
This is further backed up by the latest BRB FAQ that says an IC attached to a unit that is arriving from reserve, whether outflanking or not, cannot leave the unit the turn it arrives, but can leave it as normal in the following turn.

Bear in mind here I'm not talking about putting the unit in reserve; I'm talking about, essentially, un-deploying it. That is, I've placed it on the tabletop and now want to use Lady Malys' rule to remove it from the tabletop without putting it in reserve.

Normally DoW would allow you to keep units off the tabletop without necessarily having put them in reserve, because all the stuff that ain't deployed moves on at the start of your first turn.



The more I think about this, the more obvious it seems that the answer is 'You can't use Precognisant to un-deploy stuff, only to re-deploy it'... but as increasingly obvious as that seems there's just some niggling thing in the back of my mind that won;t let me leave it at that, lol. It feels unnecesarily restrictive for some reason, even though it is by all accounts the right way to play it. Maybe it's just me.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:as increasingly obvious as that seems there's just some niggling thing in the back of my mind that won;t let me leave it at that, lol. It feels unnecesarily restrictive for some reason, even though it is by all accounts the right way to play it. Maybe it's just me.

This happens to me all the time--it's not just you.

It is one of my favorite parts about YMDC.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Bear in mind here I'm not talking about putting the unit in reserve; I'm talking about, essentially, un-deploying it. That is, I've placed it on the tabletop and now want to use Lady Malys' rule to remove it from the tabletop without putting it in reserve.

Normally DoW would allow you to keep units off the tabletop without necessarily having put them in reserve, because all the stuff that ain't deployed moves on at the start of your first turn.

The more I think about this, the more obvious it seems that the answer is 'You can't use Precognisant to un-deploy stuff, only to re-deploy it'... but as increasingly obvious as that seems there's just some niggling thing in the back of my mind that won;t let me leave it at that, lol. It feels unnecesarily restrictive for some reason, even though it is by all accounts the right way to play it. Maybe it's just me.

Well, redeploy would be to re-position the model on the table. The only way to use Lady Malys rule to remove a unit from the table prior to your first turn would be to put it in reserve.
Only other option is to not deploy anything in DoW, and move what you want on to the table your first turn, which will take the Lady out of the issue.

I'm confused why people are insisting that the transported unit is being redeployed when the transport moves, and don't panic when a transport deep strikes carrying passengers that can't deep strike. If you redeploy a transport that is carrying a unit from one corner of the board to another, you've redeployed one unit.

You had permission to move the transport, and you moved the transport, even though you didn't have permission to move the passengers.
Just like when you have permission to deep strike a vehicle, and you deep strike the vehicle even though the passengers can't deep strike.

But this does not create some strange loop hole to get around the Dawn of War deployment limitations because Lady Malys' ability does not include the choice of moving units from reserve onto the table. She can't bring in three fully loaded raiders because she can't bring in units from reserve, all she can do is put units into reserve or redeploy units.

solkan wrote:I'm confused why people are insisting that the transported unit is being redeployed when the transport moves, and don't panic when a transport deep strikes carrying passengers that can't deep strike. If you redeploy a transport that is carrying a unit from one corner of the board to another, you've redeployed one unit.

Since Multiple Unit Choices on page 92 is very clear and explicit that a unit and its transport are always two separate units, I don't think the position you've expressed above is nearly as cut-and-dried as you present it.

solkan wrote:You had permission to move the transport, and you moved the transport, even though you didn't have permission to move the passengers.
Just like when you have permission to deep strike a vehicle, and you deep strike the vehicle even though the passengers can't deep strike.

Movement and deployment are two different things.

And Deep Striking a transport with its squad doesn't trip anyone's "counterintuitive" alarm, as Drop Pods have made it clear how that works for about seven years now. Also, because the DS rules make clear that DSing is a form of movement (as well as a variant deployment), and a unit being carried along when its transport moves has been clearly understood for the whole life of 40k; ~24 years now.

1: Units in a Deepstriking transport count as Deepstriking.

2: Units in a deploying transport count as deploying.

3: Do units in a redeploying transport count as redeploying?

Only if the "redeployment" actually results in a different deployment.

Again, where does it state how to start the game with transports and embarked units? I can't find it anywhere (other than the point about dedicated transports), but that wording would have significance.

If it says that the unit is "deployed" in the transport, then redeploying the transport would not result in redeploying the unit embarked.

If, however, they may start the game "embarked"... then the waters get murky for me, and I'm not ready to state a definite ruling on the subject. It doesn't actually specify how they are deployed, but then I can see problems with DoW in general.

As for the (restatement of the) original question, DoW rules state that all models that were not deployed and not declared to be in reserve may arrive on turn 1. If a unit fits into that description, then they are not deployed, which means that they were also not redeployed.

That's how I see that issue, although an FAQ could easily sway my opinion.

DoW is as close as we go "In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops, already embarked into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops)" Page 94. One deploys troops 'embarked into their transport'. It's annoying that they only ever talk about DT but they are after exactll like transports excepte they may only start the game carrying etc.

kirsanth wrote:This happens to me all the time--it's not just you.

Good to know, lol.

time wizard wrote:Well, redeploy would be to re-position the model on the table. The only way to use Lady Malys rule to remove a unit from the table prior to your first turn would be to put it in reserve.
Only other option is to not deploy anything in DoW, and move what you want on to the table your first turn, which will take the Lady out of the issue.

The "other" option is only really an option if you're not looking to gain some benefit from deploying the unit and then shifting it; like how Eldar players use Eldrad to line their Guardians up along the centre of the table so you have to set up squashed against your own board edge then move them back out of harm's way. Lady Malys' rule allows even sillier shenanigans because her redeployment is done after Scout moves and Seize The Initiative rolls are made, and thus being able to not only whick the Warriors to safety but take them off the table and have them arrive from the board edge on turn one would be all kinds of awesome.

All that said, this seems to be by far the most sensible argument thus far. I mean, it's essentially the same thing I've had in my head all along, it's just worded far, far more succinctly, lol.