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I've noticed a very interesting trend in gaming Podcasts in the past half year. For the longest time, some of the more popular shows - Podhammer, Worlds End Radio, and Dice Like Thunder - have been Games Workshop centric. Dice Like Thunder and Podhammer covered Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy respectively, and Worlds End Radio was a smorgasbord of GW produced products (I may not be exaggerating when I say that not a single episode has gone by when the words 'Blood Bowl' have been said - not that I'm complaining!). Recently, however, there has been a shift in focus in these shows.

As Dice Like Thunder fans know, that show ended and restarted with The Eternal Warriors, which now focuses on Warhammer 40k and Warmachine.

In the latest episode of Podhammer, Jeff talks about his interest in Warmachine, the fact that he's started a Khador army, and that Podhammer will now feature a bit more content from Privateer Press.

Worlds End Radio has had some changes as well, with show content now changing from feature for other games to show time devoted to Warmachine & Hordes, Malifaux, and games produced by Spartan Games.

I'm curious as to how much longer still 'pure GW' shows - like The Independent Warriors and 40k Radio - will hold out, until they become a mixed game podcast as well.

So, here's the thing. Is this still more proof that wargamers are moving away from GW and to other systems, or at least branching out a bit more? Is this a sign of GW's declining hold over the interests of wargaming? Will there be a day (and if so, how far away is it?) when new gamers walk into their LGS and the first thing they see are walls lined with non-GW products, and the Space Marines and High Elves have been placed in the back corner?

Warmachine (privateer press) has been piggybacking on GW since they started.

Some of their stuff is such an obvious rip it's rather juvenile, Skorne? Really?

Its no surprise that they are showing up in other places besides stores right next to GW, because thats been their obvious plan all along.

Unfortunately because it's an obvious lower price point clone, it will never take the title.

You sound a little bitter there Augustus.


Or perhaps it's the fact that some players are looking to branch out because they want something different in their games. That they're bored/disgruntled/done with GW, and are looking for something else to play. I'd imagine that if you had 6K pts in whatever GW army you enjoyed, after you were done collecting them, you might want something else to do.

Or, heaven forbid, they might actually enjoy the game of Warmachine/Hordes better than 40k/Fantasy.

Augustus wrote:Warmachine (privateer press) has been piggybacking on GW since they started.

Some of their stuff is such an obvious rip it's rather juvenile, Skorne? Really?

Its no surprise that they are showing up in other places besides stores right next to GW, because thats been their obvious plan all along.

Unfortunately because it's an obvious lower price point clone, it will never take the title.

I'm not sure why any of that would (even if true) would lead to independent pod casts changing focus.

Are you saying that these hobbyists are easily duped? That despite Warmachine being inferior people leave 40k and play it because of a gypsy curse or something?

Focus and Fury, a Warmachine Podcast, featured a brief tip section on Warhammer in their last episode. Granted, they were just being stupid and mocking the game, but that counts, right?

many of these podacsters are aknowlaging that GW is starting to become the grumpy old man of wargaming, they see the way GW is now catering to 12-13yr olds with there rules, look at how worlds end radio refuses to aknowlage 8th edition, and they're testing the waters to see what other companies have to offer.

Yeah, I would broadly agree with that.

The people making these GW centred casts are GW centred veterans who are starting to become disenchanted with GW's attitude towards vets.

Warmachine is as Augustus said a similar concept to 40K -- proprietary rules, models and fluff set in a Grimdark(tm) background. It's bound to have appeal to 40K vets looking for that sort of alternative.

I don't know what the fantasy alternative to WHFB would be.

It would be dangerous to assume these casts represent all of tabletop gaming, however. They represent the people who want to make casts.

Polonius wrote:Are you saying that these hobbyists are easily duped? That despite Warmachine being inferior people leave 40k and play it because of a gypsy curse or something?

Kind of.

In gross generalities mind you:

Yes, I think a certain subset of ex GW gamers leave the fold and play War machine because it is incredibly similar thematically, and cheaper, and gives them another camp to be in where they can go to decry GW which they don't like now for whatever reason.

...and to be overt:

I don't think much of Warmachine. After having played both games, the mission less PP play is gimmick trump card power based, nearly terrain less, with way to many tokens and counters and the scale is to small. It's essentially mission free 40k kill teams with nothing but HQ choices, Elites and dreadnoughts every time. Meh.

(I do like the minis though!)

Did you know that there's a ton of scenarios that you can play in Warmachine, from their Steamroller tournament pack? I mean like 15 missions, where killing your leader isn't the only way to win.

HQ's, Elites and Dreadnaughts all the time? Sounds like Apocolypse.

Devilsquid wrote:Or perhaps it's the fact that some players are looking to branch out because they want something different in their games. That they're bored/disgruntled/done with GW, and are looking for something else to play. I'd imagine that if you had 6K pts in whatever GW army you enjoyed, after you were done collecting them, you might want something else to do.

Perhaps. To be sure, some folks have a legitimate grievance w/ GW, I concede, for example an Iron Warriors, Swordwind, Black Guardian or Lost and the Damned army on a dusty shelf perhaps? But it still fits the pattern.

Devilsquid wrote:Or, heaven forbid, they might actually enjoy the game of Warmachine/Hordes better than 40k/Fantasy.

I like European Dark Chocolate Tea biscuits, but, yea, I still eat Cracker Jacks once in a while, they're just not as good.

Devilsquid wrote:Did you know that there's a ton of scenarios that you can play in Warmachine, from their Steamroller tournament pack? I mean like 15 missions, where killing your leader isn't the only way to win.

No I didnt, that sounds pretty good.

IMO- The reason you are seeing these podcasts branch out into other games, is because the podcasts are made by gamers and for gamers. All of these podcasts are independent and get absolutely zero support from Games Workshop. So, if the guys running the podcast happen to play other games that are not made by Games Workshop, then why not talk about them.

The second part of that, is that GW is so tight with their property, that pretty much all the guests you hear on the podcast shows are either former GW employees that are now working with separate companies, or contract employees that write books, but are technically not employeed by the company as a whole. Where most other game companies welcome the opportunity to tell an audience like us about their upcoming material in a way to help increase sales, GW hordes their information to share as they see fit.

Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised to see GW create their own podcast to discuss their games and send Cease & Desist letters to all the independent podcast groups... GW has a strange way of keeping a tight grip and cutting off the hands that feed them. Take the White Dwarf for example... Every piece of material in that magazine is created and published by Games Workshop. You don't find ads in there from any other companies.... There's also GW's rules regarding internet and web sales where they tell independent retailers that they are not allowed to show pictures of their product on the internet.

So, basically I think that for these guys running the podcasts it probably isn't a bad idea to discuss other games, because eventually if/when that C&D letter comes, they have a smooth transition to another game in the hobby that they enjoy.

Augustus wrote:

Polonius wrote:Are you saying that these hobbyists are easily duped? That despite Warmachine being inferior people leave 40k and play it because of a gypsy curse or something?

Kind of.

In gross generalities mind you:

Yes, I think a certain subset of ex GW gamers leave the fold and play War machine because it is incredibly similar thematically, and cheaper, and gives them another camp to be in where they can go to decry GW which they don't like now for whatever reason.

...and to be overt:

I don't think much of Warmachine. After having played both games, the mission less PP play is gimmick trump card power based, nearly terrain less, with way to many tokens and counters and the scale is to small. It's essentially mission free 40k kill teams with nothing but HQ choices, Elites and dreadnoughts every time. Meh.

(I do like the minis though!)

Is that really a bad thing?

We all know that Troops are only in 40K to force players to buy lots of useless models. No-one wants to use them. If they weren't required by the rules, they would vanish form most armies instantly.

Augustus wrote:, Skorne? Really?

Yes, really. I'd see it more if the faction had corrupted individuals serving a war god, but
the Skorne culture is atheistic. It has a rigid code of the warrior, and only splinter of it has
raging berserkers. I can't remember the fluff reason for them, but they're shirtless dudes
with spikes poking out of their skin.

Unfortunately because it's an obvious lower price point clone, it will never take the title.

They're more similar in business practice than gameplay or background. Phased combat vs.
model by model activation. Unit abstraction vs. some individual model activation.

And yet the business practices still differ.

I wouldn't call it a clone. That's like saying that Baseball and Soccer are clones.

Aduro wrote:Focus and Fury, a Warmachine Podcast, featured a brief tip section on Warhammer in their last episode. Granted, they were just being stupid and mocking the game, but that counts, right?

That sounds like a bad idea. I don't know. I don't like bad blood between game systems unless
it's self deprecating in some way.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:many of these podacsters are aknowlaging that GW is starting to become the grumpy old man of wargaming, they see the way GW is now catering to 12-13yr olds with there rules, look at how worlds end radio refuses to aknowlage 8th edition, and they're testing the waters to see what other companies have to offer.

That's something of an odd analysis though, isn't it? Grumpy old men catering to 12 year olds?

Kilkrazy wrote:Yeah, I would broadly agree with that.

The people making these GW centred casts are GW centred veterans who are starting to become disenchanted with GW's attitude towards vets.

Warmachine is as Augustus said a similar concept to 40K -- proprietary rules, models and fluff set in a Grimdark(tm) background. It's bound to have appeal to 40K vets looking for that sort of alternative.

There's grimdark stuff in Warmachine, but really there's a lot of magic and swords and other
things as well. The game doesn't (in my mind) focus on the grimdark so much as the intrigue
of elder powers such as Everblight and Toruk. It's more Fantasy than sci-fi.

malfred wrote:

FM Ninja 048 wrote:many of these podacsters are aknowlaging that GW is starting to become the grumpy old man of wargaming, they see the way GW is now catering to 12-13yr olds with there rules, look at how worlds end radio refuses to aknowlage 8th edition, and they're testing the waters to see what other companies have to offer.

That's something of an odd analysis though, isn't it? Grumpy old men catering to 12 year olds?

I see it as they have the attitude as a sort of "get off ma lawn" attitude to other companies and vets, but a "you wanna buy some candy, make sure your parents remorgage their house though" attitude to younger customers and starters

malfred wrote:I don't listen to podcasts. I just don't have the patience for them.

not even on the way to work, or while painting?

Augustus wrote:Yes, I think a certain subset of ex GW gamers leave the fold and play War machine because it is incredibly similar thematically, and cheaper, and gives them another camp to be in where they can go to decry GW which they don't like now for whatever reason.

As a 40k player who still plays 40k but also owns two huge Warmahordes faction collections, I really can't resolve my impressions with your impressions.

Warmachine is incredibly different thematically. There is no raging hell dimension that everyone is fighting or fighting for. Everything in PP is more 'grimy/shiny steampunk' versus 40k grimdark. There's no 40k equivalent to Cygnar, for example. 40k has naked evil Space Elf pirate rapists. Warmahorde.... doesn't? The two baddest factions are a necromonger-esque cabal of warlocks led by a dragon and a militant ascetic Greco-Roman empire.

I don't think much of Warmachine. After having played both games, the mission less PP play is gimmick trump card power based, nearly terrain less, with way to many tokens and counters and the scale is to small. It's essentially mission free 40k kill teams with nothing but HQ choices, Elites and dreadnoughts every time. Meh.

Warmachine has a dozen published missions every year, plus a PP-supported interactive campaign, plus fresh models and unit rules for use in that campaign season. The official mag has step-by-step faction-specific terrain creation guides and the rule set itself supports a diverse array of specific terrain stats (shallow water, deep water, rough terrain, forests, walls, obstacles, light concealment, heavy cover) as opposed to 40k's 3 Missions with 3 Deployments in Area Terrain, Ruins, and Buildings. 40k's attempts at diversity of experience (Planetstrike? Battle Missions?) tend to be poorly thought out, horribly balanced, and fall completely flat in all the gaming circles I'm part of.

Your complaints read like someone who went to a seafood buffet, tried the croutons on the salad bar, and left in a huff after declaring that the food was dry and tasteless.

To address the OP's broader general topic, I think GW's price of entry finally reached the tipping point where all other games begin to look better by comparison. Warmahordes, Infinity, Spartan Games, and Malifaux can all be played for $50. You don't have anything near a fully fleshed out list/army of course, but you are balanced against other lists of that point level can have a relatively involved, dynamic game with good exposure to the full rules set. The cheapest you can get into 40k varies widely by army, but is at least double that, probably triple or quadruple, and you're still playing at kind of a truncated level with pretty skewed balance.

40k has the best plastics on the market by far, but it's no longer the best game on the market by far (or at all). Combine this with the utter lack of GW marketing, internet presence, and tinfoil hat paranoia surrounding 'leaking' pre-release information, is it any surprise that gamers are open to other systems?

While painting I have numerous options:

DVD Commentary
audio book
shows I have already watched.

Driving to work I have:

Howling with the radio
national public radio

The thing with podcasts is that, i don't know, I'm just not terribly interested and can't
focus on them for some reason. I don't listen to Focus and Fury, I gave up on Fell Calls a long time
ago. I can't even represent and listen to Russ's podcast anymore.

WM has its place in gaming.

Atleast PP makes an effort to FAQ often and while each faction gets their book, the other factions get a new unit here and there. I like how no one faction is just left alone unlike some others in 40k (Tau, Necrons, Formerly DH)

To drag the topic back from system bashing.

I listen to quite a few podcasts, as I drive a lot for work, and I think that it's mostly down to the fact that single game podcasts are always going to run out of stuff to talk about after a couple of years worth of episodes. It's no coincidence that the king of the gaming podcast is D6G, who talk about everything. With the year of MK2 Hormachine releases, podcasts like GutsNgears have done pretty well last year, but I reckon that they'll struggle for enough quality content next year too, without repeating themselves. I'd rather see multisystem podcasts rather than spectacular implosions (40K radio I am looking at you).

I fervantly believe that single system gaming is the perfect way to burn yourself out of the hobby. Variety really is the spice of life. So i'm pleased that more podcasts are becoming multi-system. I was particularly pleased when World's End Radio showed that they were prepared to take the mic out of any gaming company that makes stupid decissions, rather than just going for the easy target.

sourclams wrote:Your complaints read like someone who went to a seafood buffet, tried the croutons on the salad bar, and left in a huff after declaring that the food was dry and tasteless.

Ok, I get it, so you guys are saying it's not as simple as all that, there's a lot more depth to it (if you get the tournament pack, and do the custom campaign and buy the extra mags, and make your own custom terrain) and it's about flavor. You could say the same thing about warhammer, if you go to tourneys and play custom missions, and get planetstrike and apocalypse and white dwarfs...

No way that every game is about killing the enemy super character who controls everything with points?

Oh right,

...that is every game. Yea, that's a whole buffet, of just different kinds of crackers. Shockingly it's actually a worse 'character hammer' game than Warhmmer is, which is saying something given the whole character hammer concept origin. An ironic statement on the copied concept of WM, the characters there, even bigger atrocious monsters.

malfred wrote:

Augustus wrote:, Skorne? Really?

Yes, really. I'd see it more if the faction had ...rigid code of the warrior...berserkers...spikes poking out of their skin.

Oh right,despite the same color, and name with an extra S they are totally different, how silly of me. End of line.

Malfred wrote:

Aduro wrote:Focus and Fury, a Warmachine Podcast, featured a brief tip section on Warhammer in their last episode. Granted, they were just being stupid and mocking the game, but that counts, right?

That sounds like a bad idea. I don't know. I don't like bad blood between game systems unless it's self deprecating in some way.

You are such a nice guy Malfred! I don't like bad blood between game systems as long as everyone knows which one is really best!

thehod wrote:WM has its place in gaming.

Exactly! It's a Warhammer alternative!

As is shown by the podcasts, when they need an alternative, they go to number 2.

infinite_array wrote:
I'm curious as to how much longer still 'pure GW' shows - like The Independent Warriors and 40k Radio - will hold out, until they become a mixed game podcast as well.

It is only a matter of time before 40K Radio moves into Warmachine and Malifaux because Battlefoam has the rights to do their bags.

Now if my favorate podcast (The 11th Company) goes rogue, then I will be disapointed.

But their will always be mixed gaming podcasts and single game podcasts and those that are somewhere inbetween.

Augustus wrote:bunch of stuff

So glad to see this discussion turn into another OT rugby vs football vs. soccer vs.
creationists vs. string theory threads. You don't have to cheer on a game by
ignoring facts people bring you about another game system. We get it. You're
every bit of a fan as we are, we just like different games and different worlds.

It's okay. We'll always have dakka.

Breakup snuggle?

Yeah, I too have been noticing this trend amongst podcasts. I also find I don't really get annoyed with it anymore, even when they talk about games I don't play. I used to just turn off/fast foward the cast or tune it out when they brought up stuff I wasn't interested in. Now quite a few game systems have gotten my interest solely because these podcasters seem to have so much fun with them.

Whether its due to a decline in GW or not, who knows. They are still the 300 lb gorilla in the room of the miniature games industry. But in my opinion, there are just too many good quality miniature games out there to have a podcast focus solely on one product without it getting stale or repetitive for both the listeners and the podcast owners.

Augustus wrote:Warmachine (privateer press) has been piggybacking on GW since they started.

Some of their stuff is such an obvious rip it's rather juvenile, Skorne? Really?

Its no surprise that they are showing up in other places besides stores right next to GW, because thats been their obvious plan all along.

Unfortunately because it's an obvious lower price point clone, it will never take the title.

Trolling troll is obvious in his trolling...

Augustus wrote:I need to stop drinking and then going to post on dakka

I noticed this trend in podcasting and it may just be our nature as gamers... we looove the new shiny! Plus, one can get burned out of the 40k-ness of things when an army they were gung-ho for... like necrons or tau... are now pretty much uncompetitive and the company hasn't addressed it.

Warmachine is a different flavor of gaming. The rules are different but it's still miniature gaming. Variety is the spice of life. While I'm not a Warmachine person, I still listen to the podcasts that were previously 40k only and just fastforward the Warmachine stuff. Maybe I'll find it interesting some day. Maybe not. We never know when the next fantastic mini game will come out. I'll still love painting, converting and playing with toy soldiers!

malfred wrote:

Augustus wrote:bunch of stuff

Breakup snuggle?

Ha ha ha, ok you guys got me. I lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Augustus wrote:I need to stop drinking and then going to post on dakka

malfred wrote:

Aduro wrote:Focus and Fury, a Warmachine Podcast, featured a brief tip section on Warhammer in their last episode. Granted, they were just being stupid and mocking the game, but that counts, right?

That sounds like a bad idea. I don't know. I don't like bad blood between game systems unless
it's self deprecating in some way.

I think it worth mentioning that Focus & Fury overall runs a tongue-in-cheek but very pointed "MkI Page 5" style in their podcast, that their forums are sort of like a haven for those that have been banned from the PP forums and that the 40k rag is part of an amusing feud they've got going with Stelek. Their attitude to PP itself is as barbed as their attitude to anything else. If you find their kind of humour amusing (as I do) they are a great deal of fun. You just have to remember not to take their attitude entirely seriously...which, if you listen to the way they talk on the podcast, is hard to do.

[edited to contribute to the real discussion]

To actually contribute, I think podcasts broadening their focus is a good thing - for them. Single-system podcasts can get stale both for the listeners and the cast, unless company activity is insanely high (as PP's has been in 2010). As long as you feel it works for you, by all means, run with it. But if Carrol is disillusioned with 8th edition as it is now, as it seems, I think it is far better to branch out a bit to maintain interest in the podcast than slowly strangling your own enthusiasm. The D6G is by far the best gaming podcast out there. The cast helps, but their broad focus is also a good thing.

As an aside, thanks to their tip I am winning 17% more of my games!

I can't imagine how long it takes GW to release something new these days is helping...

A little late to the party, but I thought I'd just drop a comment here from our show's perspective.

The increase of scope for World's End Radio's content was a long overdue evolution for us, and essentially one we had planned from the beginning of the show back in '08. The reality is that JJ and I play a LOT of games, of all different types, from many different companies. GW is what we know best, and is what we both have personal backgrounds linked to - so it was essentially our logical starting position. I think we've done a pretty good job for the last 2+ years establishing ourselves in terms of the quality GW content we've worked to produce, so the show is now ready for the challenge of opening things up a bit to a (hopefully) wider audience.

Whilst it's true in part that there seems to be many gamers out there at present moving away from the comfortable embrace of GW's collective game settings to try out the offerrings from other companies, I think that a large part of why this is happening is simply due to the massive amount of quality out there at the moment. There are some pretty exciting games that companies are producing right now, and whilst we are inevitably being drawn in by some of them at present more than we have been previously - it isn't so much a case of us distancing ourselves from GW at all - it's just that we want to talk about other fun stuff too!

All this considered, the recent change in format was not a decision that we took lightly. We don't really want to become a "jack of all trades - master of none" kind of show, or to disenchant our core GW hobbyist listeners, so we're trying to walk the tightrope at present in terms of how much new range content we experiment with, and how much of our oldschool content approach we favour. This is part of the reason why (for the immediate future at least) we will be sticking to a limited range of new game content, being the game lines from Privateer Press, Wyrd and Spartan - as well as our existing GW material. One positive in terms of our show is that being known as "World's End Radio" doesn't really typecast us towards a particular game or company like a name such as "40K Radio" or "Podhammer" ( ) does. I'm happy to say - that so far the response to the new content has been OVERWHELMINGLY positive. I think it just goes to show that many people who listen to podcasts like ours actually do dabble across multiple ranges just as we do.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:look at how worlds end radio refuses to aknowlage 8th edition, and they're testing the waters to see what other companies have to offer.

Which is why we didn't bother to do 2 full episodes to cover the new edition when it was released of course. Oh wait - yes we did.

Seriously though, JJ's views on Warhammer at the moment are his and his alone. I don't share them at all and still am quite enjoying 8th Ed. (Though having contrasting views on such a thing amongst the hosts does make for some interesting and lively discussion!) I think we do a pretty good job of presenting both sides here to be honest, so I really hope it doesn't come across otherwise.

At any rate - we're extremely excited about what this year and beyond will bring in terms of new opportunities for great content, so I hope you'll come along for the ride!

Thanks guys.

- Luke @ World's End.