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So let's say the sorting hat tells a Tomb King (the model, not the army) he's in Hufflepuff, he gets mad and keeps the hat. How does that work? The Wizard Hat rules suggests he picks a lore and is a Wizard 'Arry. But Tomb Kings (the army now, not the model) don't roll spell dice like other armies, how does that work?

He is a wizard, can use power dice as normal, and can still incant.

Simples

So, if he's wearing a wizard hat I roll for Winds of Magic? I guess I'd be doing that anyway so my opponent gets a dispel dice...

He must have been in Hufflepuff... explains why he's only a level 2.

serious answer
step one randomly assign a lore to the king
step 2 roll on the lore as normal.

You create a pool of spell dice, which normally go to waste
you can now use those spells to cast the spells assigned to your king.

BUT, your magic phase must either occur before, or after your incanations, they can't be interrupted by magic.

Naturally, you'll always want your magic to go after your incantations because you'd hate to mis-cast and cost yourself an entire phase.

You create a pool of spell dice, which normally go to waste

Correct me if I am wrong (my TK info is a bit out of date) but can you not use the winds of magic dice in your magic phase to dispel remains in play spells from the previous players turn?

If that is true, then a TK player should always be rolling winds of magic, and keeping track of what he needs to dispel in terms of RIP spells.

Ragnar, are you talking about miscast results that would kill the caster? Because none of the miscast results end the magic phase anymore. Most drain power dice (besides their effect).

Lehnsherr - you HAVE to roll for winds of magic; given that's the only way your opponent gets dispel dice....and yes, you can dispel RIP spell at any point in your magic phase using power dice.

Ragnar - can I ask wher eyou get your rule that Incantations, which are during the magic phase, and spell casting, which is during the magic phase, must be segregated? I've not seen anything which would suggest that, at all.

I'm not sure if this is what he meant, but Incantations have to be cast in a very specific order, I don't think regular, non TK magic is on the list though.

Mainly because until 8th they didnt have any standard magic.

While you have to cast Incantations in a specific order, there is *nothing* that I have seen that states you cnanot cast a spell in the middle of your incantations. As long as you follow the Hieratic order you are good to go.

That seems like it would be an enormous advantage wouldn't it? To be able to cast all your incantations, and you get all your winds of magic dice as wel?

Yea, it is handy, but right now TK need all the help they can get, so no one minds. Plus, you are only a level 2 caster after all. 2 spells on top of your pile of incantations are not too worrisome.

I love it.

Yesterday my TK Ard' Boyz list played a Trollstar Ard' Boyz list and randomed up Lore of Light.

Pha's Protection and Net of Annoyance.

Between Net, staggering side charges with tomb Scorpions (since he had no artillery) and Khalida's little staff of holdiness, I kept the trolls from charging me the entire game and squeaked out either a minor victory (depending on a ruling with the casket) or a major victory.

I <3 my Kings.


It really adds a strategic element having something to do with your power dice other than potentially burn out bound items, and choosing to do magic first really helps out with archer / catapult heavy lists. Chucking 4 dice at 2 lore spells followed by 3 dice at bound items leaves them thin to stop 6 invocations and a casket.

The ruling for not being able to "interrupt" your incantations actually had to come from the FAQ for teamgames from last edition.

The understanding was that once you started your incantations, the heirarchy can not be interrupted. So the FAQ Question came up "well what if I'm playing in a team-game that has a player who actually uses magic".

The answer i gave was their answer. Nothing has changed about incanations in the new edition, meaning the same caveat applies and GW's answer still stands. Incantations once started, cannot be interrupted per their own ruling after the book came out.

Their answer is no longer in the FAQ, therefore it does not apply to anyone, rules wise.

also bear in mind that TK need power dice to activate a few of their magic items that are bound spells.

so you need to roll WoM anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Their answer is no longer in the FAQ, therefore it does not apply to anyone, rules wise.

Page 35.

There is a strict order in which Tomb Kings magic must be performed.

1) all Bound items not used by characters
2) Icon Bearer: Bound Items
3) Tomb Princes "My Will Be Done" and Bound Items
4) Tomb Kings "My will Be Done" and Bound Items
5) Hieratic Hierachy -- Liche Priests and High Liche Priests must use their Bound Items when it is their turn to perform their Incantations
6) Casket

Don't suppose you can point out, where, in that amazingly strict set of rules the permissive phrase (that is your argument, isn't it nos?) "Cast your magic spells" happens to be? I for the life of me can't find it. This Heirarchy cannot be broken once it starts. If you cast a few incantations, get to your king, cast an incantation, and then start casting his spells from his Wizarding Hat, your opponent could argue that you can't go back to the incantations because you've skipped the rest of your phase to get to the point where he could cast. King's either get bound items or my will be done when it's their turn. High priests either get one of their incantations or bound items.

The general permission to be able to cast magic spells at any point in your phase, with any wizard in any order you choose.

Which is not overridden by the rules regarding Incantations, as they are not the same thing.

So, again - care to point out the RULE which states TK cannot cast Spells in the middle of incantations? You'll struggle slightly, given they couldnt cast spells at all when the book was written.

Could you avoid the sarcasm, btw? It's not exactly helpful.

The hat is not an incantation
nor is it a bound item.
therefore it is not usable during the incantation phase.

the King or the Liche Priest can ONLY use bound items or Incantations during the heirarchal incantation phase

Magic is either before, or after, not during.

Nothing changed about the TK book in the re-writing of the BRB. So the FAQ reasoning still stands

I'll keep the sarcasm thank you, I like it.

I am inclined to agree with Nos on this one, with the caveat that I don't have the TK book and so don't know the precise wording past what Ragnar states.

The order of incantation type stuff is ordinal, meaning that so long as the Icon Bearer bound items happen after everything before them and before everything after them the rule is satisfied. Whether something not on that list happens in between them should not matter so long as all the enumerated items on the list happen in the proper order relative to each other. (The relative to each other is the important part.)

A good thing to check would be what the TK book / FAQ has to say about dispelling RIP spells, since that was still an option for them last edition if I recall.

Ragnar4 wrote:therefore it is not usable during the incantation phase.

Please point out the phase, in the BRB or TK, called the "incantation phase"

Oh wait, it doesnt exist.

TK cast incantations during the magic phase. They must cast *incantations and bound spells* in a specific order, however NOTHING in the rules state that the order cannot be interrupted - and the rules for casting magic allow you to cast with any wizard in any order in any part of the phase

Still waiting on your rules here. Making up non-existent phases /= actual rules, for avoidance of confusion.

Ragnar4 wrote:the King or the Liche Priest can ONLY use bound items or Incantations during the heirarchal incantation phase

Magic is either before, or after, not during.

Again, you have failed to provide an actual rule to back up your assertion, and you've made up a phase to attempt to provide support

Ragnar4 wrote:Nothing changed about the TK book in the re-writing of the BRB. So the FAQ reasoning still stands

Nothing changed excetp....it isnt in the TK FAQ, therefore the "reasoning" is invalid (otherwise they would have kept it in). It does not apply to the current 8th ed era TK players.

Ragnar4 wrote:I'll keep the sarcasm thank you, I like it.

You do that

Wehrkind wrote:
A good thing to check would be what the TK book / FAQ has to say about dispelling RIP spells, since that was still an option for them last edition if I recall.

-- You recall correctly, they had the ability in the "dispell RIP spells portion at the end" in last edition. There's nothing that says they can't this time, so they would follow.

I would buy the ordinal rankings argument Wehrkind if the TK book doesn't establish that if you skip any portion of the heirarchal casting order that you can't go back. So in a tournament environment, if you were to cast a couple of incantations, and then cast some spells, a savvy opponent could declare that since the only thing listed permissively is bound and incantations for any character, that you skipped everything else to get to the kings ability to cast spells, that you've lost the rest of your phase. This is disasterous to a tomb kings player. It's the only thing they do well this edition. Even if Nos IS right, I don't want to leave my tournament game in the hands of a Judge, because he'll invariably get it wrong.

You have not skipped anything, at all. Not sure where you get that idea from - you have suspended the list while you do something else, which the spell casting rules allow and there is nothing specific in the TK book to prohibit it.

I assume you accept you made up the "incantation phase" as well?

You have still followed the order, just inserted something in between.

Additionally: you dont leave it up to a judge. Prior to the tournament you ASK THEM This question, that way it is far, far less critical.

Ah I think I see where we are talking past each other Ragnar: you seem to be assuming that the incantations part is all one big piece, with spells/dispells being outside that piece by necessity. I (and presumably Nos) are not making that assumption, but rather seeing each piece as a separate bit that merely follow an order. Which is why to us it seems like circular reasoning that spells have to be done before or after the incantation list because if you do a spell in the middle it means you are done with incantations.

The difference is perhaps illustrated as the Train Argument (yours) and the Queue Argument (mine).

Train: The TK process laid out in the book (the 6 steps listed above) must be followed in order and immediately consecutively. Any break in the process (by casting something normal spell in between) stops the process and forfeits any further TK stuff. The key is the entire TK process must happen together, in order.

Queue: All the TK components above must happen in that order, but need not be consecutive. Other actions can take place so long as the ordinal flow is not disturbed. You still follow the rule that if you go from 4 to 6 you can't go back to 5,however casting a BRB spell from your Wizard King after 4 but before 5 and 6 still allows you to go to 5 and 6. The key is the process must happen in order.

Personally, I think the Queue argument is more appealing because it requires fewer rules added to the text of the book, which says you can't skip and go back, and that they must be in a particular order. Requiring them to be in one inseparable sequence is not really written in the rules, possibly because the alternative never used to be an option?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But of course checking with the TO and Judges before the tourney is the best course until there is an official ruling from GW.

Nos, you're killing me.

I didn't make the phase up, GW did. You act like GW is omniscient and never makes mistakes, scrubbing the FAQ was a mistake.

Clearly we won't come to an agreement on this. Whatever.

As to not leaving it up to a judge. Bill Edwards roffelstomped me at the 2k5 Seattle GT by making an agreement with me about a rules question, playing buy it for turns 1-3, then as soon as it befitted him, flipping gears and calling a Tourney organizer over and taking advantage of the rule the opposite way in turns 4-6. This occured in the money round. He went on to win the whole tourney because of it. So Eff leaving it to the judges and Eff him for it.

Did you post your list up here Ragnar? I wouldn't mind seeing it, since the TK lads are seen as being pretty hamstrung this edition. Always curious to see what people come up with to counter common knowledge!

I'm actually still working on that list Wehr. It's almost done.

The more and more I think about khemri, the more I realize that units are there to deliver characters to the battle. So I've been kinda striving 1:1 combatty units to combatty characters.. which means lots of princes.

I appreciate your mediation Wehr.

Nos, I'm a dick. sorry.

No worries, it happens.

Yes, if GW want the Incantation order to be inseparable then they need to put it in the FAQ; until then it CAN be separated. Until then there is no "incantation" (sub)phase and it CAN be interrupted.

I also said to clear it with the *TO*. NOT each player individually, but the *TO*. You then have an agreement before the tournament, and before involving any players - when hopefully saner heads prevail.

Wehrkind wrote:Did you post your list up here Ragnar? I wouldn't mind seeing it, since the TK lads are seen as being pretty hamstrung this edition. Always curious to see what people come up with to counter common knowledge!

I've got one up and would appreciate some feedback. Just saying.

Ragnar4 wrote:I'm actually still working on that list Wehr. It's almost done.

The more and more I think about khemri, the more I realize that units are there to deliver characters to the battle. So I've been kinda striving 1:1 combatty units to combatty characters.. which means lots of princes.

I appreciate your mediation Wehr.

Nos, I'm a dick. sorry.

Heheh no problem. I gotta say, gaming has really taught me a lot of general life skills, and taking time to break down what people are saying into the core ideas to see where they agree and where the distinction is is one that is most useful, when I have the presence of mind to do it. I don't often, but sometimes It's always easier when you don't have a horse in the race, as it were

That really is an interesting concept for the TK lads, and almost sounds more like what most people think of WoC when they first pick up the book (before they think "Wow... warriors are REALLY cheap!") I wasn't aware that TK princes were such combat monsters; is it more that you can get a lot of pretty killy guys, or that they can be kitted out to be very strong individually for a good price? After seeing so many lists that consist of arrow/catapult spam that is a really interesting idea. Salvage should be really keen to see it too, since he is working on a TK list with his normal conventional wisdom allergies.