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Me and my friends usualy play 2vs2 matches, usually chaos+tau vs 'crons+guard. My friend uses nearly all pulse rifles, which are handy in infantry fire fights. But I had a quick look at his codex and saw the entry for pulse carbines, and that they had the same stats as rifles but shorter range and assault1. I was always under the impression (never played a game with them used) that they were rapid fire, weaker, short range weapons. They don't really seem much use as FW use them, and if they assault its pretty much a death sentence for them. Am I missing something or are they as useless as they sound?

How would they be used in low points games, usually 500/750p, effectively?

Pulse carbines have Pinning. So in theory, they aren't that bad, but in practice, Pinning almost never works...

The point of the carbines is that (IIRC) they're Assault 1 18" and Pinning.

As Backfire pointed out, sadly, Pinning doesn't do much because Fearless is so common in 40k and units with under Ld9 are pretty infrequent too.

The advantage of Assault 1 18" is that you can move and fire from 18" away, as opposed to Pulse Rifles which only have 12" range if you move; pretty much guaranteeing you're going to be assaulted if the target survives. But in practice 1 S5 BS3 shot from a 10pt model just isn't that good.

Yeah, you get sniper rifles, except they're shorter range, don't guarantee wound on 4+, and can't rend, on a unit that's not assaulting after it shot them.

A 40k weapon WORSE than a sniper rifle? Sign me up...

Mannahnin wrote:The point of the carbines is that (IIRC) they're Assault 1 18" and Pinning.

As Backfire pointed out, sadly, Pinning doesn't do much because Fearless is so common in 40k and units with under Ld9 are pretty infrequent too.

The advantage of Assault 1 18" is that you can move and fire from 18" away, as opposed to Pulse Rifles which only have 12" range if you move; pretty much guaranteeing you're going to be assaulted if the target survives. But in practice 1 S5 BS3 shot from a 10pt model just isn't that good.

But tau main strength in low point games is pretty much a stationary gun line, Pulse Rifles have 30'' range, with a 15'' rapid fire distance, so I still dont think why people would ever trade 12'' range for pinning, which is crap, or do people never use pulse carbines?

winnertakesall wrote:
But tau main strength in low point games is pretty much a stationary gun line, Pulse Rifles have 30'' range, with a 15'' rapid fire distance, so I still dont think why people would ever trade 12'' range for pinning, which is crap, or do people never use pulse carbines?

I would love a 15" rapid fire but it's just not so....all rapid fire happens at 12" because Space Marines have 24" guns and they're all that matters when GW writes rules.

winnertakesall wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The point of the carbines is that (IIRC) they're Assault 1 18" and Pinning.

As Backfire pointed out, sadly, Pinning doesn't do much because Fearless is so common in 40k and units with under Ld9 are pretty infrequent too.

The advantage of Assault 1 18" is that you can move and fire from 18" away, as opposed to Pulse Rifles which only have 12" range if you move; pretty much guaranteeing you're going to be assaulted if the target survives. But in practice 1 S5 BS3 shot from a 10pt model just isn't that good.

But tau main strength in low point games is pretty much a stationary gun line, Pulse Rifles have 30'' range,

Sorry, I wasn't just talking about low-point games; although even in those you may need to move around in Devilfish to take objectives. Some people use FCW flying around in Devilfish to hold objectives, and hopping out (often behind the DF itself) to hose down an enemy unit with fire. If you use Carbines you can do that from 6" farther away; which is nice. Unfortunately they just don't put out enough firepower for it to generally be worthwhile. Which is why you don't see the carbines used.

...

winnertakesall wrote:[with a 15'' rapid fire distance, so I still dont think why people would ever trade 12'' range for pinning, which is crap, or do people never use pulse carbines?

Rapid Fire while moving has always been 12", in this edition, 4th edition, and 3rd edition. That's 13 years now? Not half range.

IME carbines are indeed rarely-seen, except on Pathfinders, who are forced to take them.

winnertakesall wrote:
But tau main strength in low point games is pretty much a stationary gun line, Pulse Rifles have 30'' range, with a 15'' rapid fire distance, so I still dont think why people would ever trade 12'' range for pinning, which is crap, or do people never use pulse carbines?

People use Pulse carbines all the time, in Gun Drones...because that's all they have (man...if you could have Gun drones with Pulse rifles...droooool....). And of course, Pathfinders also have Pulse Carbines, but they almost never fire the Carbine.

95% of the Tau players use Pulse rifles for Fire Warriors. A tiny minority swears by Carbine Warriors, but they're few. I've tried them few times, to make Fire Warriors more mobile, but the fact is that BS3 Assault 1 simply is not enough Dakka.

winnertakesall wrote:But tau main strength in low point games is pretty much a stationary gun line, Pulse Rifles have 30'' range, with a 15'' rapid fire distance ....

I disagree with this. Gun Line is not the main strength in low point games, or at any level, really, not in 5e. For low point games, as many Crisis suits (FireStorms, IMHO) as possible are the 'main strength'. Throw in a Railhead under 1k, and tau rock.

winnertakesall wrote:, or do people never use pulse carbines?

I've played tau for 5 years and have never equipped my FWs with 'em. I cannot recall seeing them on the table, and in the army forum, the majority of us dissuade posters from using them.

It's not enough Dakka until you complement it with Markerlights. BS5 and -2 to pinning is alright, considering you used two units to deliver the same potential of one.

The codex is 4thed & IIRC in 4th every pinning wound beyond the first imposed -1ld on the check. Now it just produces consecutive checks. Sadly with the amount of Ld 10, fearless & Ld 8+stubborn models it is no longer as viable.

Stelek posted a list that used them heavily but I do not understand the list. You can find it here

It was FAQ'd recently as being one pinning test per unit per phase of shooting. At Rng18" it's 24" effective range moving towards the target, and 12" effective range moving away. As opposed to 18" and 6" for the Pulse Rifle. Being able to shoot from 13"-18" away from the target means more shots for the unit.

Take, for example, two rectangle formations of 3 rows of 4 columns. If only the front rank of unit A is within 18" of unit B, only 8 Pulse Rifle shots can be fired. As such, 16 and 24 shots can be fired by the whole unit. However, spaced a full 2" apart and accounting 25mm bases as being 1", the front rank of the unit would have to be within 6" of the target unit for the back rank to get that many shots. That's ignoring complications from line of sight, which serves to degrade the potential performance of the unit. So great if you want to get within assault-distance with Tau, but less so otherwise.

On the other hand, all 12 Carbine shots would require the front rank to be within 12", and 8 would require the front rank to be within 15" and the second range within 18". So half the shots for better defensive use. It's a good trade off, the pinning is just gravy.

I tend to use carbines on a squad that takes emp grenades. This unit basically is acting as a buffer against things like dreads through cover, tank shocking, and other vehicle issues. It's always fun to say your using your emp grenades when an enemy dread walks up thinking you would make a nice snack,

I always thought the assault weapon was so that you could deploy in the mid and fall back towards you table edge and still fire 18. I must say rapid fire sounds better though.

The main selling point for carbines is that a fire warrior gunline is not very good. Most players take minimum squads in Devilfish, and the fire warriors tend not to get out unless they're forced to (ie their ride dies). Any shots they take are basically throwaway shots, so why not have the chance to pin on them? Also, since you're probably not choosing where you're getting out, chances are you'll need to move just after, and the extra 6" range can help out.

I suspect if used right the assault would be invaluable against assaulty armies, who would eat the fire warriors for breakfast at 12".

Of course, a proper assault unit can reach 18" (if maybe not every time with fleet), so that might be specific to assaulty armies that were poorly thought out.

Thanks guys, I always thought that rapid fire was half the distance, we had a debate about it, and came to the comclusion it was half the distance of the units weapon. That will stop him chewing up assaulting marines at 15 inches, two 12 man squads at rapid fire distance arent very nice people

Pulse carbines are only really useful in conjunction with markerlights to lower the leadership but the only units which are of regular use with carbines are pathfinders. Guess who carries the markerlights?
Figures....

Shas'O Dorian wrote:The codex is 4thed & IIRC in 4th every pinning wound beyond the first imposed -1ld on the check. Now it just produces consecutive checks. Sadly with the amount of Ld 10, fearless & Ld 8+stubborn models it is no longer as viable.

As far as the Stubborn, you can still use markerlights to reduce Ld and pin them, Stubborn only effects morale test, which pinning is not.

Nurglitch wrote:It was FAQ'd recently as being one pinning test per unit per phase of shooting...

Just to clarify, it says one pining test per unit per phase per unit shooting at it with pinning weapons
So you can still cause a unit to take multiple pin test per turn, just has to be different units causing the checks each time.

winnertakesall wrote:Thanks guys, I always thought that rapid fire was half the distance, we had a debate about it, and came to the comclusion it was half the distance of the units weapon. That will stop him chewing up assaulting marines at 15 inches, two 12 man squads at rapid fire distance arent very nice people

Wow, you had a debate? None of you own a rulebook?

Mannahnin wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Thanks guys, I always thought that rapid fire was half the distance, we had a debate about it, and came to the comclusion it was half the distance of the units weapon. That will stop him chewing up assaulting marines at 15 inches, two 12 man squads at rapid fire distance arent very nice people

Wow, you had a debate? None of you own a rulebook?

We did, I just couldnt see it in there

If you have spare markerlights they are probably better used to kill enemy units rather than just try to pin them.

Pulse carbines will be good when they become Assault 2 in the next Codex: Tau.

Shivan Reaper wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:The codex is 4thed & IIRC in 4th every pinning wound beyond the first imposed -1ld on the check. Now it just produces consecutive checks. Sadly with the amount of Ld 10, fearless & Ld 8+stubborn models it is no longer as viable.

As far as the Stubborn, you can still use markerlights to reduce Ld and pin them, Stubborn only effects morale test, which pinning is not.
.

Are you sure about that? I'm very certain that the pinning rules tell you to make a morale test to determine whether a squad is pinned, meaning that stubborn would work.

ohiopotato wrote:

Shivan Reaper wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:The codex is 4thed & IIRC in 4th every pinning wound beyond the first imposed -1ld on the check. Now it just produces consecutive checks. Sadly with the amount of Ld 10, fearless & Ld 8+stubborn models it is no longer as viable.

As far as the Stubborn, you can still use markerlights to reduce Ld and pin them, Stubborn only effects morale test, which pinning is not.
.

Are you sure about that? I'm very certain that the pinning rules tell you to make a morale test to determine whether a squad is pinned, meaning that stubborn would work.

Then you're very certainly wrong. Pinning is a Leadership check, not a Morale check (pg 31).