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So I have been reading the Horus Heresy novels and was starting to wonder when or if the Space Marines adopted the Emperor as a God. I mean one of their central beliefs was the truth of a purely secular universe. I get how over time it was easy to convert the masses to that belief but space marines don't die of old age. As a matter of fact, some of the dreadnoughts fought in the Great Crusade. Turning lies into truth over thousands of years is easy when the people who were originally there die off. Stories get told and retold and change over time without anyone around to correct them. However, this isnt the case for the Space Marines. They have people who were there and fighting for exactly the opposite of what the Imperium stands for now. Did they change their minds when the Emperor died or did they simply decide that defending humanity from xenos and the warp was more important than the ideals of Imperial Truth?

Thoughts?

In the HH novels, you see people gradually turning to the idea that the emperor is a god, even though they had strongly disbelieved this before. Maybe the space marines eventually turned to this idea too, especially when the emperor isn't in a state to say otherwise.

Generally Space Marines do not believe The Emperor is god.
They are charged to protect The Imperium and The Emperor despite whatever may have happened to The Imperial Truth.

The space marines worship the Emperor as the master of mankind, and the pinacle of human perfection and evolution, NOT as a god, this is why they have fallen out with the ecclesiarchy on several occasions

Many space marines actually did worship the emperor as a god, just not openly.

the Word Bearers were the only exception until they were admonished for doing that. they then decided that the Emperor, dispite being divine, wasn't worthy of worship. they then found the Chaos gods and turned many other legions to the cause.

Many Marines and humans on the loyalist side worshiped the Emperor as a god too, but did so in secret. these factions eventually rose to promanance and the Impeial Creed was born.

Grey Templar wrote:Many space marines actually did worship the emperor as a god, just not openly.

the Word Bearers were the only exception until they were admonished for doing that. they then decided that the Emperor, dispite being divine, wasn't worthy of worship. they then found the Chaos gods and turned many other legions to the cause.

Many Marines and humans on the loyalist side worshiped the Emperor as a god too, but did so in secret. these factions eventually rose to promanance and the Impeial Creed was born.

"[...] and with strange aeons, even heresy may BLAM!.

I know that the imperial cult was around long before the Horus Heresy but it was more than discouraged. It was stamped out at every turn. The worship of Gods was the antithesis of everything that Imperial Truth stood for. I just dont get how the space marines justify sticking with the imperium if they still adhere to Imperial Truth.

Well, It doesn't seem like they really stick to the tenants of the Imperial Truth anymore; it's not mentioned in any of the fluff aside from the HH books; at least that I know of. I think they've slipped backward into a more superstitious mindset, but marines still generally don't worship the Emperor as a god.

He is worshipped by the Marines, Just not as a god, He is a God to themn in all but name. If you asked a marine is the big E a god he would probably say " The Emperor is the light and the way, the only hope for humanity and he is the master of mankind but no he is not a god". blah blah blah words to that effect.

Generally with the way things are now, I'd say **** the Imperial Truth and just focus on survival.

The thing with space marines not dying of old age confuses me...some sources talk about them never dying of old age, while others like the Blood Angels codex states that they do ineed die by old age. Since it says that Blood Angels, as written in the codex "...are among the longest lived of all the Space Marine Chapters. One of the peculiarities of their aberrant gene-seed is that it has vastly increesed the lifespan of those who ber it...".
While I can recall sometalk between some marines in one of the HH books I've read about they never dying of old age, you still have to take into account that there is no way for them to prove that statement true, the Space Marines are still newl created by the time of the great crusade and none of them as had the time to "grow old and die".
Also a Marine usually would die in battle before he got a chance to grow old enough to weaken or die.

The only "living" marine I know of from fluff that are still around and kickin' are Bjorn the Fellhanded who were a dreadnought at that time also I think? and the oldes living marine is Dante, the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, who is atleast 1100 years old but most likely much older.

So Space Marines might have forgotten how things started, or they might be so heavily in-doctrined in their ways and practises that they just don't have the clarity and critical thinking required to see that the "truth" has been changed.
Or they think that preserving mankind is more important than trying to eradicate the heretical Imperial Cult, a full scale war between the Space Marines and those loyal to the Imperial Cult(which is the major part of the human race) would destroy the last sparks of the Emperors plan.

There's old age and there's near immortality.

Look at it this way, if the average Space Marine fights one engagement a year, and has a 1% chance of being killed in an engagement, his average lifespan is going to be around 120.

There ought to be a few SMs who by good luck have survived for hundreds of years. Who is the oldest known SM?

Kilkrazy wrote: Who is the oldest known SM?

Bjorn of the space wolves is the oldest surviving marine in a Dreadnought. He was part of Russes personal retinue and the only one of the retinue to stay behind when Russ took off for the eye of terror.

He also became the first Wolf King right?

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote: Who is the oldest known SM?

Bjorn of the space wolves is the oldest surviving marine in a Dreadnought. He was part of Russes personal retinue and the only one of the retinue to stay behind when Russ took off for the eye of terror.

Oldest not counting Dreads?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote: Who is the oldest known SM?

Bjorn of the space wolves is the oldest surviving marine in a Dreadnought. He was part of Russes personal retinue and the only one of the retinue to stay behind when Russ took off for the eye of terror.

Oldest not counting Dreads?

I think that Dante is the oldest, or Lysander.

Are they noted for being very old, and how old are they?

Dante is 1100 or so, Lysander maaay not count cause he was in the warp for a bit so who knows what's what. Grimnar is also pretty old, but his actual age escapes me.

BA codex doesn't say, they are just centuries years old, Dante is thought to be the oldest. If the Sanguinor is really Azkaellon, then he is oldest.

well, it does say "Dante is known to have lived for 1100 years, and is almost certainty far older." on pg 12


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it says "Despite the fact that Logan has seen seven hundred years of warfare, to this day Ulrik calls Logan "Yound Grimnar."" on pg 56 of the SW codex. So there are two more in excess of 700.

So if the average is about 300, the mode is probably down around 200 or less, because those old guys are pretty rare.

Sounds reasonable, although there'd be a good bit of variance based on how each chapter operates.

Dante has been Chapter Master for over 1100 years.

Logan Grimnar has been the 'Great Wolf' (Wolf King, I laughed ) for over 700.

---

Aside from Bjorn, who is old enough to have walked alongside Russ, and the other dreadnoughts of older age, they are the oldest two known loyalist Space Marines, outside of the 13th Company of the Space Wolves.

The Alpha Legion have spent the majority of the time since the Battle for Terra outside the warp, and it seems there are still members living who were present 'the day Horus slew the Emperor'.

Well, I apparently Ulrik the Slayer is older than Grimnar (which I forgot until I looked up the quote about how old Grimnar is about half an hour ago).

aside from Dreadnoughts, you arn't going to find any marines that were around during the Heresy that are loyalists.


you could count some Dark Angels inside the Rock. Johnson's there and so is...


We know that Dante has been Chapter Master for 1100 years. it's also rumored that he was the first individual to encounter the Sanguinor(who, if he is Askellon, is the oldest living Space marine)

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:Logan Grimnar has been the 'Great Wolf' (Wolf King, I laughed ) for over 700.

Wolf King was Leman Russ' title. I thought Bjorn wore the same title since he took over the leadership of the wolves just after their primarch's departure.

Yeah there are some Dreadnoughts from the Hersey still around but they could of just well forgetten? Kinda happens when you have been living in a shell for so long. They may not want the others to know what actually happened. But I know for a fact that there are many chapters of space marines that still hold the Imperial truth up high example (Black Templars)

Laodamia wrote:

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:Logan Grimnar has been the 'Great Wolf' (Wolf King, I laughed ) for over 700.

Wolf King was Leman Russ' title. I thought Bjorn wore the same title since he took over the leadership of the wolves just after their primarch's departure.

Hmmm, I'd never seen him called the Wolf King, so, my apologies. Although, how Bjorn could be the first when Leman was before him confuses me.

Bjorn was named the first Great Wolf.

The BA codex states that even Lysander "cannot remember a time when Dante was not the Lord of the Blood Angels".

I think all the quotes about Marines being functionally immortal came from the HH series, at this point the great crusade was only just over 200 so the oldest full space marine would be what 250-300 ish? so basically although none had died of old age yet that was just because a marine hadnt had the chance to. I thinkj Loken states that they dont really know how long an astartes that wasnt killed by war would live.

The casualty rate would prevent any except the luckiest from surviving very long.

There might also be some who spend a long time in transit and fight very few battles.