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HQ

Herald of Slaanesh 90
- Chariot
- Unholy Might
- Soporific Musk

Herald of Slaanesh 90
- Chariot
- Unholy Might
- Soporific Musk

Herald of Tzeentch 110
- Chariot
- We are legion
- Master of sorcery
- Bolt

Herald of Tzeentch 110
- Chariot
- We are legion
- Master of sorcery
- Bolt

Troops

Plague bearers 100
- icon
x5

Plague bearers 100
- icon
x5

Plague bearers 75
x5

Plague bearers 75
x5

Elites

Bloodcrushers 200
- icon
- instrument
- fury
x4

Bloodcrushers 200
- icon
- instrument
- fury
x4

Fiends of Slaanesh 190
- unholy might
x6

Heavy support

Daemon prince 220
- MoN
- iron hide
- daemonic flight
- unholy might

Daemon prince 220
- MoN
- iron hide
- daemonic flight
- unholy might

Daemon prince 220
- MoN
- iron hide
- daemonic flight
- unholy might

Thats exactly 2000 points.
Whats does dakka think of it..?
Any critique is welcome

I don't like the heralds of slaanesh you could have 5 fiends but I think its more what you prefer

Also maybe replave 1 Plague beares troop with icon for a tzeentch troop with bolt and changeling.

And the thing that really doesn't go is UM on the princes! Give them Noxious touch... costs 10 points less and you wound all on a 2+ not only T4 or lower.

also allows a nice reroll

Id drop the Heralds and get, Bloodthirster and Fateweaver, Fateweaver has the shooting power of the Heralds, Bloodthirster is pure 100% threat, and if they all shoot the Bloodthirster hes gaining rerolls on Arm/Inv saves from fateweaver.

Drop the Fiends if you wanna roll with 2 sqauds of Bloodcrushers and get a group of Flamers instead.

Drop the icons on the 2 groups of Bloodcrushers.

Keep unholy might if they are gonna be hunting tanks.
If they aint get Noxious touch

He already has 2 crusher squads and droping the Icons on them would be stuppid because you lose wound allocation.

Also his healds don't cost nearly as much as fateweaver and a thirster cost. Also fateweaver hasnt got the potential the 2 Tzeentch heralds have... he cant shoot 2 bolts and 2 gazes in 1 turn.

I simply don't realy agree with you sry

Hes got 4 Icons Over kill for a start, Hes got 14 Kill points on the board If he gets the half of the list he dosnt want first turn he will be down at least 2/3 kill points.

Fateweaver and Bloodthirster Both MC's Bloodthirster gains rerolls on Inv/Arm/Cover saves because of Fateweaver, Fateweaver owns 2 heralds any day of the week.
Yes they are more points but this is a 2k list why use lods of half hearted models when you can use 2 Solid ones..

I would drop all of the Slaanesh and add Kugath, the plague father.

Thanks for the input guys.

Sooo.. I've got the models for a true daemon zilla list - 5 MC etc, however, i've always wanted to play chariots. I know everybody plays Tzeentch chariots - however, i've always wanted to play the slaanesh chariots. Infact i'm converting high elf chariots, using seekers with Sigvald the magnificent riding in one and i havent decided what model to use for the other herald.

However - back to the point, the reason i've included unholy might opposed to noxious touch for the princes - is there main job will be tank hunting - upon reflection, it may be useless using iron hide - given most of the dakka firing at them will deny armour saves, right?
What do you guys think is the most effective tank hunting DP build?

I was also thinking dropping two of the PB squads or cheapening the DP's to make way for an uber 15 - 20 man letter squad or two MSU squads of horrors and the changeling?
Thoughts?

PS.
I do not wanna run Fatecrusher.
Yet.

Hey BBJ,

Other than previous posters I think your list is almost perfect. Even though spamming MC's is fun of course, it's not needed to make a competative list.
To answer your question: IH on the Nurgle Prince is needed I think. With T5/T6 Princes are quite vulnerable to massed bolterfire and S6/S7 spam (Autocannon/Multilaser/Scatterlaser/AssaultCannon). Only the Tzeentch Prince can do without IH because of the improved Invulnerable save. Tank Hunting Prince? I'd use the Tzeentch one...

I'd change a few things a make it like this:

90 Herald of Slaanesh, Chariot, UM, Musk
90 Herald of Slaanesh, Chariot, UM, Musk
100 Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, MoS, Bolt
100 Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, MoS, Bolt

200 4 Bloodcrushers, everything
200 4 Bloodcrushers, everything
190 6 Fiends, UM

75 5 Plague bearers
75 5 Plague bearers
100 5 Horrors, Changeling, Bolt

215 Daemon prince, MoN, Wings, IH, Touch, Flies
215 Daemon prince, MoN, Wings, IH, Touch, Flies
160 Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze

1810

This leaves 190 points...
- You could get 8-10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne and use the remaining points to buff the Plaguebearers somewhat.
- You could get an additional squad of 5 Horrors with Bolt and 2 squads of Screamers of Tzeentch
- You could get a massive squad of Bloodletters or Daemonettes (between the two I like Daemonettes better because of their speed and Grenades).

- The Tzeentch Prince could also be duplicated saving a further 55 points vs. the Nurgle Prince.

All of these options are valid and depend mostly upon preference. If it were up to me I'd use 2 Tzeentch Princes and 1 Nurgle Prince, have 245 points to spend and get 10 Flesh Hounds for 150 points and 5 Horrors+Bolt for 95 points.

Good luck with the list!

Cilithan

Hey thanks Cilithan, good input as always

I like the idea of perhaps dropping some points on the DP's to include pink horrors and the changelling, also an uber squad of either letters or daemonettes would be good also - a 15 man letter squad to keep in reserve to deal with elite CC units like TH/SS termies etc.

Hmm.. you've given me alot to think about - maybe 2 bolt princes and one winged nurgle with nox, IH and cloud. Sounds pretty solid.
I also have 3 SGs - what is your opinion of the two - DP's and SG's that is.

Still cant finalise this list.
Does anyone think it would go ok in a tournament?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey thanks Cilithan, good input as always

I like the idea of perhaps dropping some points on the DP's to include pink horrors and the changelling, also an uber squad of either letters or daemonettes would be good also - a 15 man letter squad to keep in reserve to deal with elite CC units like TH/SS termies etc.

Hmm.. you've given me alot to think about - maybe 2 bolt princes and one winged nurgle with nox, IH and cloud. Sounds pretty solid.
I also have 3 SGs - what is your opinion of the two - DP's and SG's that is.

Still cant finalise this list.
Does anyone think it would go ok in a tournament?

No thanks, I learn as much from lists like yours...

To answer your final question: Yes I think this would do well in a competative environement/a tournament. Of course Daemons are chancy and you can be faced with streaks of bad luck. However, that - to me - makes Daemons great fun playing. What I mean is that you'll be forced to deal with mishaps, bad scatters, getting none of your reserves in turn two and then only half of the reserves turn 3, etc... This challenge makes for a game where you constantly have to revise your strategy, see whether it's still valid or if you need to take an entirely different path.

To compensate for the chance-factor most Daemons tournament lists rely on Fateweaver. He can be extremely overpowered in a good game and can make for more room for error/bad luck in a bad game. I mostly game with friends and have recently stopped using Fateweaver. It just wasn't funny at times. I've seen games where he weathered two full turns of shooting from an entire IG Mech list only to receive one wound. The rest of your list can advance unscathed in that time. You can't realy ignore Fateweaver either because his impact on the game is too big. All in all I found that he could hamper the fun in a game/make for situations that werent challenging in the least.

On the other hand: I don't think you need Fateweaver at all. In the Dutch GT of 2009 I took my Black Legion CSM. The only games I lost were to Daemon lists, neither with Fateweaver. A very well played Mono Khorne list and a mixed list with Crushers, Thirster, Horrors and 2 Soulgrinders. If a good Daemon army is well played it can be devastating and your list looks very good.

As for Soulgrinders? Personaly I don't prefer them. They add to the vulnerability to chance of the Daemon army. Like any vehicle it can be rendered useless in one shot and on the other hand the opponent can score penetrating hits all game long and constantly fail on the damagechart. In games up to 1500-1750 points I can see them doing well when taking three of them. Above that point your opponent will likely have so much antitank firepower that the risk becomes too great. You know a Tzeentch Prince has to be wounded at least 4 times before it dies and statisticaly should take about 8 wounds to bring down. That makes for good, reliable resilience.

Finally on the Bloodletters vs. Daemonettes: both are great in numbers. Both are also vulnerable to small arms fire. The Letters have T4 while the Daemonettes have fleet. The Letters powerweapons vs. the Daemonettes rending, Letters S4/5 vs Daemonettes greater number of attacks. To me the added speed makes Daemonettes better than Letters. This has to do with reliabiliy again. You can't control the scatterdice and thus may end up a bit too far from combat. Speed helps you to get there anyway and hopefully not have to weather a second turn of combat. YMMV of course.
When the speed is taken from the equation the T4 and higher strength become more important, this is why to me Flesh Hounds rate higher than Seekers.

I have a tendency to ramble on, don't take any of this as law. I dislike dogmatists / people claiming one thing is valid and all others are not. The previous is just my take on things. Interested in reading about your thoughts and experience. Write us a battle report one of these days! :-)

Cilithan

I really appreciate the comments and advice

Given the players i play with play mech eldar, marines and tau and all of them have no experience at all with Daemons, all my tactics have come of reading posts from people like you, battle reports and my own experience in game(which is fairly limited) - so it is most appreciated!

I completely agree with you, in terms of the being at the whims of the so called dice when playing with Daemons. Played a 1500 point game in the weekend and lost my KoS and Tzeentch DP in the same game to DS scatter - Both to double sixes!
Managed to win however - thanks to some lucky rolling with my bloodcrushers!

Honestly i have no experience running Fateweaver, but i have read several battle reports and know how he is rightly dreaded throughout the gaming community - Though, i have no personal judgement or negative views against "power gamers" per say, it just doesnt appeal to me. Also having a list solely based around one model, seems almost too risky for me - yes i do see the irony in the "daemons player" complaining about risk But in all seriousness, losing him due to failed LD test on turn 1? Wow - your pretty much screwed.

It's interesting hearing your opinions on letters vs nettes. This is something i have debated with myself several times and still, to this day, cannot make a decision. I have 30 of each - however when i field one or the other - its usually based on how i feel at the exact moment before setting up my army. They've both performed equally well for me - i've had a unit of 8 letters take out an entire squad of TH/SS termies before they could even hit back, i've had a unit of 10 nettes kill a reduced squad of nobs almost doubling there points value.

As for the battle report - i'll make a effort to write one up once i've finished these slaanesh chariots - they are currently being modelled.
I'm very curious to see how they go.

Come to think of it - have you written a battle report..? You write one too!

Also Cilithan - what list do you run for your CSM BL? I'm interested in starting a new army - considering either CSM or DE, so would love to see a real CSM build.

BBJ

I really should pick up writing battlereports again.

At the moment we're just starting a campaign and play mostly multiple small skirmish games at 500 points or so. Last bigger game I played was three weeks ago against my friends Dark Eldar. That game wasn't a lot of fun as my friend was trying out a hastily constructed WWP build and I took my default Fateweaver list. Everything worked for me in that game, the first wave of Fateweaver, 4 Crushers, 8 Flesh Hounds and two Princes came in within 6" of Fateweaver (some after run moves). The other DP, GUO, troops came in the next turn from the Icon. So I had a massive block of killying power almost in the midst of his ranks. He had an assaultbased army with little choice but to get into the fray. Fateweaver proved indistructible again and so all my combatants rerolled saves the entire battle. In the end I destroyed his whole army losing only the Crushers and half the Flesh Hounds and my unit of Fiends to a mishap (them dying didn't even matter at all...). Even though I did take pictures I didn't bother writing up a report because the value of it would've been limited to showing how nasty Fateweaver can be when you're lucky...

The last interesting report is this one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/262694.page (The photo's seem to have disappeared, I'll try and see if I can find them, but for now the text is visible ;-) )
It also shows my 1700 points BL Tournament list. The list performed just fine, after the tournament the change I would've considered making to the list would be removing the 2 Obliterators in favour of a third Defiler. Best performing units were the Greater Daemon and the Dreadnought to my surprise...

Cilithan

Daemons were my first army. They are still my favorite to play, and I have 5 functioning armies.

That being said, I don't think Fateweaver owns two heralds. The two heralds will have 10 wounds between them (in chariots) and 1 unsaved wound fateweaver goes bye-bye. Statistically, two 4+ saves for 10 wound is better than a re-rollable 3+ save for one wound. If you play someone who doesn't know daemons, Fateweaver is great. someone who does will own him first turn.
Heralds of Tzeentch on chariots are great because they are jetbikes. I like running two heralds of tzeentch and a thirster.

For daemon princes, I prefer MoT over MoN...I'd rather have a 50 percent invul save over a 33 percent one...especially when you're going against tanks with high powered shots that blast through your toughness anyways.
That being said, they cost alot. Soulgrinders fully decked out cost less than your average daemon prince, and is actually stronger with a str10 ap1 single shot, a str 8 ap3 large blast template, and 4 str 10 CC attacks, not to mention fleet(if you need to get in combat to avoid fire). Yes, a lucky roll or two might handicap or finish your soulgrinders, but if no roll is made they will wreak havoc on the enemy.

I don't particularly like heralds of slaanesh myself, but go with what you like. the nice thing about daemons is you can practically play any HQ and get your money's worth from them. Heck, I love Skulltaker in a squad of Letters...nothing like 5 rending instant death attacks on a 4+ with a weapon skill 7...and with letters for wound soakage. What's really scary is seeing him added to a decked out 4 model bloodcrusher unit...

Might I suggest Boon for the heralds of tzeentch? It's great when they get locked in assault...since you can still use it! Heralds of Tzeentch have a hard time getting out of assault with thier low weapon skill. But if you start booning your opponent, suddenly you face less attacks and a turn later you have reinforcements.

As far as noxious touch I've found it's really hit and miss. Usually daemon princes are eating tanks, which makes NT useless. However, if you take the MoT then you can take bolt or boon to assist with the antitank or give you a boost in CC against troops and such. If you were going to stay with MoN I'd suggest BoC because it autohits and then autoglances on a 4+ and wounds on a 4+ allowing only invul saves. Noxious touch would only be helpful if you're going to face Nidzilla's monstermash or another Daemon army...not too many other crazy toughness armies out there right now.

For troops I would take one of each...horrors--not only are they the only troops with range, but they also have the only 4+ invul. Letters have the weapon skill and strength, daemonettes the speed and attacks, and bearers the FNP and poison. With all 4 you have some versatility...horrors to pepper the opponent, letters for some sure hits, daemonettes for massive dice rolling, and bearers to sit on an objective.

But use what you like to play best.