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I have finally purchased my 9th Killa Kan and converted my old Mechwarrior Poseidon model into a Deff Dread. I have also finished my converted Dump Truck/Battlewagon. I have 25 Shoota Boyz, 7 Meganobz, 30 Slugga boyz and 15 Grots. Add in an unpainted BigMek and my question becomes:

What weapons loadout do you suggest for the Kans and Dread?

I feel comfortable with the Boyz and Grots. I have 7 Meganobz in the Battlewagon and the BigMek, but I am toying with several suggestions on weapons for the rest.

Here is my Ork Theory = "More is better!"

Kans -
Big Shootas: Yes, only str & AP 5, but the 27 shots at 36" range with kans spread out for fairly easy side and rear armor after a few turns. I have rolled it 20 plus times and against Chimera side armor, Razor/Rhinos and anything else 11 or lower it destroys or makes worthless in one shooting round.

Rokkits - 9 shots and if you pull a good shooting round you may get some wrecks or explosion results. 24" range limits targets some as the opponent will try to keep his light armor out of 24" range.

Grotzookas - Good attack value with 18 small blast templates on a mob or vehicles, but 18" range kills me. Str 6 isn't bad as infantry and transports won't like it.

I wouldn't use KMB as it is way too expisive and only kills termies which the big shoot does a much better job (hmmm, 9 shots vs 27............) The Skorcha is what it is and short range may defeat having it shoot at all.

Dread -
CCW - its a melee beast that cannot be ignored as it runs every turn to get at something, ( issue#1: it can run away from KFF range, issue 2: immobilized and he is a wasted unit all game, issue#3: CCW are expensive and the opponent will target heavy. If blown up a waste of points, but kinda a catch 22)

Skorcha - I like, solid with its BS2 issues, but short range not a big help. May be nice when multi-assaulting and you have rear armor and some grunts to hit with flame template.

All others are a waste with BS2 etc.

I think in the end my biggest problem is deciding between Big Shootas, Grotzookas and Rokkits on my Kans. I have rolled up multiple test, (with how I roll etc) and against infantry, light vehicles and being able to touch almost anything on the board = Big Shootas are winning, plus they are dirt cheap!

I completely understand Rokkits, its just the range and only 9 shots, (I know that sounds strange). Grotzookas would be an instant pick against Horde IG, Nids etc etc as I consistently rolled more than 40 wounds at AP 5.

What do you think?

For the dread, go with all CCW since his bs is so poor there is no point to it. Although maybe a flamer on the dread could work too.

For kanz it's a toss up. Some people swear by grotzookas and in truth they can hurt hordes pretty bad. However, i believe that anti-mech is much more important so just go with rockets on the kanz and you can't go wrong.

bagtagger wrote:For the dread, go with all CCW since his bs is so poor there is no point to it. Although maybe a flamer on the dread could work too.

For kanz it's a toss up. Some people swear by grotzookas and in truth they can hurt hordes pretty bad. However, i believe that anti-mech is much more important so just go with rockets on the kanz and you can't go wrong.

Agreed here. CCW for the dreds and I'm a fan of KMB on the Kanz if you have the points. Rockitts are also fine. I'm not a big fan of grotzooka's. But it's really a meta game call. If you think you're gonna see vehicles str 8+ is the way to go.

Since BS3 is so rare for Orks, giving all of the Kans rokkits is the best bet considering the weakest link in a Kan Wall list is ranged anti-mech.

You can also field Lootas for transport popping.

Basic set up-

HQ- Big Mek, KFF, maybe a Skorcha, a Powerklaw. Depends on points. Also, a second one is often needed.

Troops-
4 units of boyz. Anything that is in front (relative to the other boyz and not the kanz) should pack shootas. Anything behind should be slugga and choppa. Reason: Shootas extend your range before engaging in melee. S+C boyz are for the countercharge.

Obligatory powerklaw and bosspole along with Nob upgrade needed.

And squeeze out one minimal squad of grots for objective holding.

Elites-
2-3 5 man Loota squads. Great for popping transports and to soak up fire.

If 2 Lootas, then a squad of Kommandos led by Snikrot. He's a great board shrinker and punishes enemies who skirt the edges of the field. Mix in two burna boyz against hordes.

Fast Attack-
Solo deffkoptas with buzzsaws x3. Great for popping transports.

Also depending on points- 3 units of 3 rokkit buggies is also an annoyance.

Mix the two types of units at your leisure.

Heavy Support-

9 Kans- All with rokkits, or 1 squad with grotzookas and 2 with rokkits.

2 Dreads- All DCCWs or 3 with Skorcha. Your choice.

I will be playing out a 1500 point Kan Wall for a couple weeks, but my next plan of attack was mentioned above = Buggies! I was planning to field 9 of these as well all with Rokkits and the Kans all with Big Shootas.

If I go 9 Kans and 9 Buggies - what load out looks best:

Kans = 27 shots w/ Big Shootas at BS3
Buggies = 9 shots w/ Twin Linked Rokkits at BS2

or

Kans = 9 shots w/ Rokkits at BS3
Buggies = 27 shots w/ Twin Linked Shootas at BS2

or

Kans = 9 shots w/ Rokkits at BS3
Buggies = 9 Heavy Flamer templates after moving 12" to 13"

I think in the end my biggest problem is deciding between Big Shootas, Grotzookas and Rokkits on my Kans.

My experience tells me that rokkits are the best choice.
You cannot have enough rokkits in an Ork army!

Yeah, CCWs on Dread, Rokkits on Kanz. Grotzookas are good too, but I find that if you are fighting tanks, you need Rokkits.

The rest of the list would seem to be very simple. Lootas, Boys, a KFF Mek or two, and maybe some Suicide Koptas if you have the points.

Da-Rock wrote:
I wouldn't use KMB as it is way too expisive and only kills termies which the big shoot does a much better job (hmmm, 9 shots vs 27............)

But KMB works nicely against Mephiston...

Backfire wrote:

Da-Rock wrote:
I wouldn't use KMB as it is way too expisive and only kills termies which the big shoot does a much better job (hmmm, 9 shots vs 27............)

But KMB works nicely against Mephiston...

So does 27 shots from Big Shootas

27 BS = 0.75 wounds...
9 KMB = 3.75 wounds...

Not that numbers lie or anything.

ChrisCP wrote:27 BS = 0.75 wounds...
9 KMB = 3.75 wounds...

Not that numbers lie or anything.

Too bad statics only hold so much and don't mean anything if you don't roll like that. Not to mention dice, rolling surface, those who believe in Noetic science etc etc all are factors in the above.

You see 3.75 wounds on Terminators. I see 45pts for Big Shootas vs 180pts for Kustom Mega Blasta on 9 Killa Kans. Your 3.75 wounds and 180pts is all tied to the hope your opponent runs Terminators and also doesn't have Storm Shields.

Thank you, but I'll take Big Shoota, then Grotzookas and then Rokkits. If I knew I was going to play Deathwing etc, I would be in your camp bigtime.

If you do take Big Shootas, what is your answer in terms of long range capability against armies with higher AV value facings (i.e. Predators with AV 13, smurt IG players who only show their AV12 front facings, so forth and so forth).

I'd suggest rokkit buggies, buzzsaw suicide rokkitkoptas, but I want to hear your answer.

WarOne wrote:If you do take Big Shootas, what is your answer in terms of long range capability against armies with higher AV value facings (i.e. Predators with AV 13, smurt IG players who only show their AV12 front facings, so forth and so forth).

I'd suggest rokkit buggies, buzzsaw suicide rokkitkoptas, but I want to hear your answer.

9 Linked Rokkit Buggies, (when I get them of course). I have 3 Deff Coptas, but I play more 1500pt team games then solo so my partner tends to have some Melta or something in that range.

Big Shootas on Kans have very limited capabilities. Firstly a Kan Wall should be all bunched up to be in KFF range which means it is fairly simple for your opponent to only show front to you and big shootas are only good vs armor 10 and 11 (even there they can't do much). Consider then where is your AV going to come from in the wall.
Do you field masses of Lootas? You can get rokkit buggies but they will be prioritised if they are the only serious AV threats.

Personally I would go all rokkits, then get some buggies with rokkits and then get 2x5 lootas. This is a mechanized world and at the speed the wall moves at, you will need all the ranged AV you can get. (ps rokkits are actually awesome, they work against nob bikkers, nobz, tyranid multi wound creatures, MEQ units, vehicles and the list goes on)

Da-Rock wrote:
Too bad statics only hold so much and don't mean anything if you don't roll like that. Not to mention dice, rolling surface, those who believe in Noetic science etc etc all are factors in the above.

You see 3.75 wounds on Terminators. I see 45pts for Big Shootas vs 180pts for Kustom Mega Blasta on 9 Killa Kans. Your 3.75 wounds and 180pts is all tied to the hope your opponent runs Terminators and also doesn't have Storm Shields.

The question is rather 135pts Rokkits vs 180pts KMB...conventional wisdom seems to be that if you want S8, Rokkits are more economical, but if local metagame is big on high-toughness 2+ units (Thunderwolves, Mephiston) then paying the 5p extra per model might be worth it...

I usually go with 6 rokkits and 3 Grotzooka with the grotzooka kans leading the charge.

All rokkits for the kans IMO there is a reason folk say its the best choice so much in forums like dakka and that reason is that it IS the best choice

Okay, short;

ChrisCP wrote:

Da-Rock wrote:

Backfire wrote:
But KMB works nicely against Mephiston...

So does 27 shots from Big Shootas

27 BS = 0.75 wounds...
9 KMB = 3.75 wounds...

You were wrong in your assertion that 27 BS shots ‘works nicely’ against Mephiston compared to 9 KMB shots, one would in fact need 135 (or 45 Big Shootas worth) of shots at BS3 to ‘work nicely’.
~~~

Loooooong.
What your are saying is factors such as playing suface, dice and the ability to effect all matter with the power of the mind - would either, increase the effectiveness of BS by more than 5 times? Or decrease the effectiveness of KMBs by a factor of 5? Where are these 180pt for 9 KMB vs 45pt for 27 BS numbers coming from? Doesn't it cost 495 (for 9) and 360 or 37.5% more for KMB kans?

I've shown that from 27 BS shots odds on you're going to have less than a wound (Ie in 108 shots he'd be wounded 3 times) Where KMB is going to often do more than 3 (36 shots
15 wounds) If one does the math, in only 7.2% of 27BS rolls against Mephiston would one cause two or more wounds. The chance of causing one wound or less with 9 KMB shots is 3.1%, which is actually worse than the chance of killing him (6W) 6.4%!!!

In summary, KMB are better than BS points-wise against anything with better than 5+Sv and T>3 (I'm failr certain on this bracket, but didn't do numbers, if anyone has a feeling in their gut it's wrong let me know!). Which is making a strange amount of sense from an AI gun.
If you’re going to depend on TLRL buggies for AT and give the Kans BS this presents a large number of problems.
You can only tackle (possibly hope to damage) 3 AV12+ vehicles a turn.
The first turn depending on the opponents deployment you will have to TB forgoing a turn of fire.
After this turboboost, you won’t have any cover on an AV10 target.
So now that one’s moved this AV10 target within 24” we need to remember it belongs to a squadron, this means that a single stormbolter has a 8.33% chance of either removing a weapon or worse from a buggie, given one ‘usually sees 5+ bolters together 41.66% a squad of 5 bolters will crush single buggie if you’ve been following the numbers from before this doesn’t bode well for the rest of the squadron.

So by taking buggies in place of Kans for AT on sacrifices the 4+ cover and a point of AV. For a 5% return in shooting mobility and I think 35 points?

Solution, take RL on both.

OP you should search out Panic on these forums. He feilds a very good Kan wall including many buggies and a deff dread.

He does quite a few battle reports so you can see how the force does as well.

Panic? Doesn't he run a grot list kan wall or something?

I regularly run a Kan list.

I have my Kans outfitted with 6 Grotzookas and 3 Rokkits. My Dreads have a CCW, a Skorcha, Armour Plates and Riggers.

To supplement my Rokkit Kans, I also have 2 squads of 2 Buggies w/ Rokkits.

Overall, I've had tremendous success with this list. I'll give you some pointers based on what I've seen that you're fielding.

- If you are planning on fielding 9 Buggies with Rokkits, you do NOT need more Rokkits on your Kans. 9 twin-linked Rokkits should be more than you could ever need.

- Big Shootas on Kans are cheap, but that's their only advantage. Grotzookas are where it is at. I can't even begin to tell you the devastation my Grotzookas have caused. IMO the weapon should cost twice what it does for how powerful it is. A Big Shoota is ONLY ever going to cause 3 hits. 2 Blasts from a Grotzooka can easily go over and above that.

- The other huge advantage of Grotzookas that you are missing is that it is S6. This means it causes instant death for anything on the board that is Toughness 3. This is great for dealing with any abilities that grant FNP to infantry units. Big Shootas can't do that.

- My only other suggestion involves your Meganobz. 7 of them? Really? Anything over 4-5 at the most seems like a point sink to me but that's just my taste.

- Killa Kans are slow as heck. I'm not sure what opponent you're ever going to face that is going to allow you to get side armor hits on tanks with Killa Kans. This certainly isn't a strategy that should be relied on, IMO.

Personnaly my faviroute is grotzookas and big shootas

This thread and the push for big shootas and grotzookas in it makes Ghazghkull Uruk Thraka a very sad Ork.

Good info,

I have rolled the numbers myself and thats how I chose BS over Rokkits and KMB. Again, we can talk numbers all day about Terminators and , (for some reason McPhisty), but in the end, the KMB doesn't even register unless someone brings Termies or McPhisty.

I mentioned that in 1 vs 1 games I would have more issues with fielding BS, but in team games I see side armor all of the time - 1500 per person means 3000pts on the board. If you can't engineer side armor shots on that then that would explain why you are playing KBM in the first place.

I should restate how I feel about the weapons -

I know..............that Rokkits are an awesome choice. I know...................that Grotzookas are an awesome weapon. When I factor in my abilities to roll and cost of weapon - numbers become more important then effectiveness. (What I am saying here is that my Noetic ability is to roll 1s when I need 6s and 6s when I need ones) my group even laughs that I can fail 4 Termie armor saves with so many 1s and then follow up with double 6s on the leadership test. We even joke and call it before I roll.

So when I say I like to work with 27 shots over 9, there is a reason - that reason is I can't roll enough penetrates with 9 Rokkits so I tend to try and get mass glances and keep the target:

A. Not shooting
B. Not moving

all the while I am moving 27 shots and 27 Strength 10 Power attacks closer.

If I could consistently roll enough hits and pens with 9 shots I would stick with it, (I am aware that many follow numbers religiously and state all of us roll average, but just think we don't - thats really cute and all, but if you want to spend that much time learning the art of numbers then maybe you should read some chaos theory)

You can mathhammer it however you like, but in the end it all comes down to your playstyle and what works best for you.

One thing to take into account with the Grotzooka is that you get 2 blasts per weapon, and you have a 1/3 chance of each being dead on. If it's NOT dead on, you still have a pretty good chance depending on how clustered things are, of still hitting something.

Roll with your Big Shootas, but I'd strongly recommend at least TRYING a squad of Grotzooka Kans, especially if you've never used them before. Run one of your three Kan squads with Grotzookas, see how they perform next to your Big Shootas, and decide which one fits better in your strategy.

PERSONALLY for me, if I wanted more Big Shootas in my army, I'd pick up Deffkoptas or Buggies or Warbikes. A Twin-Linked Big Shoota at BS2 is more effective at getting hits than a normal Big Shoota at BS3. The Dakkagun on Warbikes is essentially a Big Shoota with shorter range, but having it on a Warbike makes up for it. I guess that strategy really isn't viable for you, since you've already filled up your Fast Attack slots with Rokkit Buggies though.

I playtested Grotzookas and when in range they are devastating to transports and infantry. 45 wounds on a 30 man IG blob - AP5 meant 15 model overkill.

Yes grotzookas are pretty nasty on soft troops, I found them to be great against things like de warriors and wyches, you can instant deth Lileth Hesperax, archons, creed and loads of other tougness 3 models and beacuse you get so many shots they fail at least 1 save. Btw last time I feilde grotzookas they killed of a squad of genstealers with one round of shooting and about 30 gaunts and even ran into combat and scored 2 wounds on a hive tyrant. Not bad for around 100pts

Dashofpepper wrote:This thread and the push for big shootas and grotzookas in it makes Ghazghkull Uruk Thraka a very sad Ork.

To be fair Ghazghkull does carry a Big Shoota though I could never understand why.. If he his the mightiest ork around surely he would have opted for something better that a 5point Big shoota that even a basic ork can field..

@ the OP : The advise offered here most often do not take into account things like team games. Sure if you bring the horde and your mate stacks up on broadsides/hammerheads or Skyrays then you wont be needing rokkits on the Kans and you can save points, however this is not taken into account (unless you mention it in your original post)

Also the range of the Grotzookas is their undoing and the fact that the current meta isn't heavy on troops. I did argue sometime ago the merits of the zooka vs the rokkit however after running them in a few tourneys and vs different competitive lists the rokkits is just the best allrounder

At frst I scoffed at anything but rokkits but now I see the merit of grotzookas mostly due to having 2 shots.

I like the 6 rokkit/2 grot kans in a kan wall. It just seems to work well.


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Big shootas are big pieces of crap. The only place I run them is on battlewagons b/c they're cheap. I run 2 so if they destroy your weapon twice, you won't be immobilized if you only took one.