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this is the scenario.My opponent drop pods in a dread in front of 3 wagons

something like

O
K X Y
O is the dread
K is the KFF
X/Y are Wagons

He asks me to check if Y is within range of the KFF before he selects a target. I tell him no and say i will check after if he selects to shoot at it. He says he should know if it is in before he selects a target .I stay firm with my no and he shoots at X and misses.

Who was right?

You were right no measuring till you fire.


But really your friend should be able to eye ball 6" (hint ... the dread is on a 2.3" base and must placed within 2" of the pod ... also the pod is 6.5" in hight)

Your friend was right, his shooting range has nothing to do with the KFF range.

Edit: It be like not telling someone about a DE flickerfeild until he fires. When if you did he might of choosing a differnt target instaed.

Flickerfield are a little different as they are upgrades like extra armour if he would have asked does that wagon have a KFF in it then the answer would have be easy. Hes question was more along the lines of, am i within assault range of that if not ill charge these guys.

He still has the right to know if it's in range of the KFF. You don't have to tell hihm anything else.

Two conflicting opinions. I'm not sure myself, but I think the OP is right - my gut says so.

I wonder if anyone can actually quote a rule, one way or the other?

page 3 of BGB "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it."

Tri wrote:page 3 of BGB "In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it."

Damn that means the KFF is useless as it dosen't let you measure any distance, just that unit within 6in get the save. Now how am I going to know what within 6in, becouse the KFF never CALLS for it, it just tells you the range it works at.

Exactly. So the measuring for the KFF is done only when a unit is trying to use the KFF's save.

NVM ninjaed

Noir wrote: becouse the KFF never CALLS for it, it just tells you the range it works at.

And, when exactly would you need to know what range it has?

What are the effects of KFF? To grant cover saves/obscured saves.

When are those needed? Loooooooong after (relatively speaking) the time of target selection.

There is no hard and fast rule about this.

I find that Full disclosure is better than not, and is the way the book states that most tournaments do it. P.92

but it is something that must be agreed upon in friendly games.

DeathReaper wrote:There is no hard and fast rule about this.

I find that Full disclosure is better than not, and is the way the book states that most tournaments do it. P.92

but it is something that must be agreed upon in friendly games.

? Yes you have to tell them there is a KF, no you don't measure its range until you checks for a cover save.

I am of the opinion he shouldn't have asked this at all, and instead used his eyes to roughly measure the distance. But since he did ask, you might as well have told him, since it's a friendly game and it would've avoided any arguments with your friend.

Tri wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:There is no hard and fast rule about this.

I find that Full disclosure is better than not, and is the way the book states that most tournaments do it. P.92

but it is something that must be agreed upon in friendly games.

? Yes you have to tell them there is a KF, no you don't measure its range until you checks for a cover save.

No rules support that you cant know which units are under a KFF at any given time.

This falls under disclosure.

If you go by full disclosure you are allowed to know what units are under what rules at all times.

again, there are no RAW to support either option. at best the rules are very unclear as usual.

DeathReaper wrote:

Tri wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:There is no hard and fast rule about this.

I find that Full disclosure is better than not, and is the way the book states that most tournaments do it. P.92

but it is something that must be agreed upon in friendly games.

? Yes you have to tell them there is a KF, no you don't measure its range until you checks for a cover save.

No rules support that you cant know which units are under a KFF at any given time.

This falls under disclosure.

If you go by full disclosure you are allowed to know what units are under what rules at all times.

again, there are no RAW to support either option. at best the rules are very unclear as usual.

In that case, the opponent could measure it himself, couldn't he?

If the OP had, during his movement phase, moved his BW and then measure to make sure it was within 6", then I'd say its fair game for all players to know exactly what the radius looks like (because that's already bending the rules).

If, however, he didn't, and he just eyeballed it, then there's nothing to say that the opponent can demand a measurement. If the OP had to eyeball it, then so does the opponent.

The page you are talking about is only about your army roster and transports. If you read the entire paragraph, there's nothing to suggest that the OP can break a key rule (measuring only when necessary) in order to give his opponent an advantage. It's almost as bad as asking if an opponent was 6" away before assaulting. You need to fail at some measurements in this game in order to learn.

Page 3 tells you that you're not allowed to take measurements unless a rule "calls for" (ie: states explicitly or requires implicitly) it.

It is inappropriate to pre-measure a KFF before selecting a target.

Full disclosure makes it appropriate to tell your opponent that a KFF exists, and where it's located, but not to pre-measure it.

Exactly, its no different than asking beforehand about charge distance as said earlier.

Oh, theyre out of range? well ill assault these guys instead ... no can do.

In fact, if one started 'checking' after/during movement that one was within 6" that would be flat out against the rules and the spirit of the game (far different from using various diving methods instead).

somerandomdude wrote:
In that case, the opponent could measure it himself, couldn't he?

If the OP had, during his movement phase, moved his BW and then measure to make sure it was within 6", then I'd say its fair game for all players to know exactly what the radius looks like (because that's already bending the rules).

If, however, he didn't, and he just eyeballed it, then there's nothing to say that the opponent can demand a measurement. If the OP had to eyeball it, then so does the opponent.

The page you are talking about is only about your army roster and transports. If you read the entire paragraph, there's nothing to suggest that the OP can break a key rule (measuring only when necessary) in order to give his opponent an advantage. It's almost as bad as asking if an opponent was 6" away before assaulting. You need to fail at some measurements in this game in order to learn.

Yes P.92 talks of transports. but it applies to the whole army such is the case with removing casualities is in the shooting section etc.

I would rather win because of good tactics than win because I "Sprung something hidden" on my opponent. as P.92 notes

Its 100% different than asking if things are in charge range.

Asking if a unit is currently under a rule that gives it a cover save is something both players should have full disclosure about.

I.E. what rules is that vehicle currently under?

Well it moved 8 inches so you need 6's to hit it in CC and there is a KFF near it that its under the effect of as well.

Full disclosure better IMO. and the way most tourneys do it.

DeathReaper wrote:Yes P.92 talks of transports. but it applies to the whole army such is the case with removing casualities is in the shooting section etc.

I would rather win because of good tactics than win because I "Sprung something hidden" on my opponent. as P.92 notes

Its 100% different than asking if things are in charge range.

Asking if a unit is currently under a rule that gives it a cover save is something both players should have full disclosure about.

I.E. what rules is that vehicle currently under?

Well it moved 8 inches so you need 6's to hit it in CC and there is a KFF near it that its under the effect of as well.

Full disclosure better IMO. and the way most tourneys do it.

No, that's not how most tournaments run it. Most tournaments run full disclosure for lists, but they don't force you to 1) break the rules associated with measuring distances and 2) give out information that your opponent should be able to discern on his own.

Stating that your vehicle moved more than 6 inches is not full disclosure. Your opponent can see how far you measure, it just helps to avoid arguments in the next turn ("You were right there, that's only 5 inches", "no, I was back here, that's 7"). Also, you need to determine how fast you move during the movement phase, and then it has effects in the following assault phase. This means that from that shooting phase to that next assault phase, all of the important information (that is, the speed to the vehicle, and by further expansion the roll needed to hit) is known by all players, because of the rules. The distance has already been measured, because you were told to measure.

This is different from a KFF, which has NO effect (none, nada, zilch) outside of the shooting phase, and even then it only has an effect when something within its radius suffers a wound or a penetrating/glancing hit. When are you allowed to measure? I'll ask again, if what you're saying is true, that the opponent should be allowed to know exactly what is under the effects of KFF, when so should the Ork player, and if that's the way the Ork player did it (where he measured KFF range to know where he needed his models) then you might as well help the opponent out, as the Ork player was already cheating anyway.

"Springing a secret trump card" is about hidden wargear, not wargear effects. Read the entire paragraph and understand the context of what it is saying. It specifically mentions reading a roster before the game starts. The sentence after the one talking about full disclosure says some people "prefer to leave a feel of secrecy around their lists". At no point does it ever talk about wargear effects, only the list composition (which would include wargear, itself).

P.92 Disagrees with you about full disclosure and tournaments.

and if you read P.3 you are allowed to measure a KFF's area.

"In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it (E.G. ... to work out a rules area of effect...).

permission to measure the KFF is right there.

worst comes to worst you can shoot at something fairly far away and force your opponent to measure the 6" KFF in that direction, even when its most likely out of range.

Point being RAW does not work well with itself on many occasions, this happens to be one of those occasions.

How does page 92 disagree with me?

I've already stated (repeatedly) that you don't need to measure for KFF unless you are resolving a shooting attack against a model, because the rules don't allow it. KFF has no effect outside of that situation, as you would not need to take a cover save otherwise, so the need for measuring is uncalled for. Tell me, in the situation presented by the OP, which rule called for the measurement? The only thing that called for the measurement in that situation was the opponent, which is not a rule.

I'm also not sure how the RaW does not work well with itself here. Does that statement have something to do with page 92 (which you keep referencing despite being irrelevant)?

No, you can not make them check to see if a potential target you want to shoot at is in range of their wargear effect, it is nothing more than you trying to TFG and take advantage of people who dont know the rules.

The only time you measure to see if a unit is in range of the KFF is when they have been the target of shooting and you are working out if they receive a cover save vs wounds/pens & glances inflicted by your shooting, NOT before you shoot.

You are wrong.

Deathreaper, I'm afraid you're mistaken. It works exactly as somerandomdude said.

No, you don't measure until the unit is targeted... and actually measuring before this would be against the rules. However you should of told him that the vehicle would have a 4+ cover save if it is within 6'' of the Big Mek.

CageUF wrote:No, you don't measure until the unit is targeted... and actually measuring before this would be against the rules. However you should of told him that the vehicle would have a 4+ cover save if it is within 6'' of the Big Mek.

this is what i was going to say, seems like the best and only solution to me, say it COULD have the save could not have to wait and see

its like targeting something across the board and you're unsure if they're in range but another unit definatly is, you can risk trying to shoot the further away one but risk being out of range or shoot the one you know is in range

the risk adds to the fun of it

somerandomdude wrote:.Snip.No, that's not how most tournaments run it.Snip.

How does page 92 disagree with you?

re-read P.92 it says most tournaments run it as full disclosure.


you need to measure to "to work out a rules area of effect" what does this mean exactly?

well the BRB makes no reference how/when you "work out a rules area of effect" is it when something moves into range? it does not say.

Thus the unclear RAW.

Just tossing in my two cents, I'm in the measure after declaring a target and cover save is called upon camp. The rules for KFF haven't been activated till a cover save is called upon therefor measuring for it shouldn't take place till a wound has been scored.

DeathReaper wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:.Snip.No, that's not how most tournaments run it.Snip.

How does page 92 disagree with you?

re-read P.92 it says most tournaments run it as full disclosure.


you need to measure to "to work out a rules area of effect" what does this mean exactly?

well the BRB makes no reference how/when you "work out a rules area of effect" is it when something moves into range? it does not say.

Thus the unclear RAW.

You're stringing a couple of things together, and coming to a wrong conclusion. Page 92 talks about most tournaments using full disclosure. (Which may or may not be be true, btw, when was the last time GW talked to all the guys running tournaments?). You've made the decision that 'full disclosure' includes measuring the effects of the KFF. No one else is agreeing with you.

The rulebook doesn't back you up.

Measuring the effects of a KFF before deciding which unit to shoot at, is no different than measuring weapons ranges before shooting, or charge ranges before declaring a charge.