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I am in the process of building my armies that I like for different point values. I plan to print the lists and put them in my box. After playing and tweaking, I will have set lists. If my tactics become predictable, I will change something up to surprise people.

My questions are: How many Kans/battlewagons do you take?

Kans

1000/1250/1500/1750 and 2000 points.

Battlewagons:

1000/1250/1500/1750/2000 points.

My preliminary lists are not quite ready but I want to get some input from Ork players to see if I am around the right number.

Kans: 1000: 6 kans
1250: 6 kans
1500: 7 kans
1750: 8 kans
2000: 9 kans

battlewagons: 1000: 2 wagons
1250: 2 wagons + 1 trukk
1500: 3 wagons
1750: 3 wagons + 1 trukk
2000: 3 wagons + 2 trukks

At any scale, take as many kans as you can max out. In fact, the more at the lower levels, the better. And usually the number is always nine, period (unless there is something else they would like to add in 'eavy Support, but that dillutes the effectiveness of massive amounts of cheap shooty walkers).

Your BW choices seem about what I take, although I'd dare the dream at 2000 and opt for 4 BWs rather than just 3.

5 BWs at 2,000 is standard AFAIK. Some people run 8!

8 battlewagons is nuts. That should be about 1000+ points. Unless you arm them all with 4 rokkits each, I don't see how you can win that way. Deff rollas are cool but their S10 hits are saveable by armour. Marines and terminators are not intimidated.

I am guessing to have 8, he took 2 warbosses, 2 squads of nobz or meganobz and got them as dedicated transports, and 3 heavy support choices.

If 5 is standard, I will consider rewriting my list. I shudder to think how many deaths I will die to my wife if I spend $65 or so 5 times to buy 5 wagons.

9 kans in all armies??? Including 1000 points?

OP:

Why don't you check out some of my Ork battle reports linked in my signature? They're all heavily picture laden, with army lists and how I use them against different opponents with tactical insight into my games - I play a Battlewagon army; 3 is a good number, four at 2500 - any more and I think you're losing effectiveness in your army.

You have to compare what your army loses by inserting more BWs.

Each BW is in the point range of 115-130 depending on upgrades.

Taking too many means your army is losing effectiveness by losing flexibility. You'll get roffle-stomped by many armies for lacking a secondary and even a tertiary threat.

You don't want to rely on them as the end-all to your match, no matter how shiny a strength 10 d6 times to something looks. It's more about what your BWs are transporting, what you are doing to protect the BWs, and what you are surrounding your army with.

But Dash is correct in looking at his lists; he fine-tuned his orks for competitive play and serve as a model for where you should be leaning towards in a BW list.

Always consider supplementing your BWs with Big Meks/KFF, Lootas, and Deffkoptas. They add things an Ork codex needs in order to survive (which is flexibility).

bucheonman wrote:8 battlewagons is nuts. That should be about 1000+ points. Unless you arm them all with 4 rokkits each, I don't see how you can win that way. Deff rollas are cool but their S10 hits are saveable by armour. Marines and terminators are not intimidated.

I am guessing to have 8, he took 2 warbosses, 2 squads of nobz or meganobz and got them as dedicated transports, and 3 heavy support choices.

If 5 is standard, I will consider rewriting my list. I shudder to think how many deaths I will die to my wife if I spend $65 or so 5 times to buy 5 wagons.

9 kans in all armies??? Including 1000 points?

Yeah 9 kans in all pts if possible. It's just the best way to take advantage of them. You can get away with 6 though in 1000pts no problem

you can get away with 6 kanz at 1500

just saying.

As a personal preference...

Killa Kan Wall between 1250-1750 pts (you can go higher, but the field becomes very crowed)
BW Rush 1750+ (4-5 is a good number, 6 is pushing it a little).

And just because you can spam 5+ BW's doesn't mean you should. A BW is no good if it doesn't have a good unit inside that can deal with infantry. BW are really good at killing vehicles, individual models that can be instand killed, and low model count units.

But if you are doing lots and lots of Battlewagons, fear not for your wallet. Because, I mean, really, they're Orks. Build some of the Wagons yourself. If you don't trust yourself with scratchbuilding, Trukk kits should have enough bitz to make decent Battlewagons (with the addition of a little plasticard or clever use of sprue-planks), and if you need more armour plates or siding, cardboard or posterboard slathered in glue (for stiffness) works great.

Anvildude wrote:But if you are doing lots and lots of Battlewagons, fear not for your wallet. Because, I mean, really, they're Orks. Build some of the Wagons yourself. If you don't trust yourself with scratchbuilding, Trukk kits should have enough bitz to make decent Battlewagons (with the addition of a little plasticard or clever use of sprue-planks), and if you need more armour plates or siding, cardboard or posterboard slathered in glue (for stiffness) works great.

Plus good looking self made battle wagons confer a +4 to awesomeness.

yournamehere wrote:you can get away with 6 kanz at 1500

just saying.

I would never advise that. Ever.

*edit*

In fact, when building a Kan-Wall, I believe the best method is this:

1. Start with nine kans with rokkits.
2. Add a KFF Big Mek.
3. Add two units of 20 shoota boyz (Nob/PK/BP) and two big shootas.

*pause*

Are you over the point limit for your game? If yes, do not play a kan wall. If no, continue building.

4. Add 5 Lootas
5. Add a second unit of 5 Lootas
6. Add a third unit of 5 Lootas
7. Add a Deffkopta with a buzzsaw and twin-linked rokkits
8. Add a deffkopta with a buzzsaw and twin-linked rokkits
9. Add a second KFF Big Mek.
10. Convert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
11. Covert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
12. Add another 20 shoota boyz.
13. Convert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
14+ Flesh out boyz from 20 to 30 (or whatever number in between meets your point needs).

Dashofpepper wrote:

yournamehere wrote:you can get away with 6 kanz at 1500

just saying.

I would never advise that. Ever.

*edit*

In fact, when building a Kan-Wall, I believe the best method is this:

1. Start with nine kans with rokkits.
2. Add a KFF Big Mek.
3. Add two units of 20 shoota boyz (Nob/PK/BP) and two big shootas.

*pause*

Are you over the point limit for your game? If yes, do not play a kan wall. If no, continue building.

4. Add 5 Lootas
5. Add a second unit of 5 Lootas
6. Add a third unit of 5 Lootas
7. Add a Deffkopta with a buzzsaw and twin-linked rokkits
8. Add a deffkopta with a buzzsaw and twin-linked rokkits
9. Add a second KFF Big Mek.
10. Convert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
11. Covert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
12. Add another 20 shoota boyz.
13. Convert a unit of 5 Lootas to 15 Lootas.
14+ Flesh out boyz from 20 to 30 (or whatever number in between meets your point needs).

Gotta disagree with ya here, at least as long as were talking 1500pts. Over that 9 kanz are preferable for sure.

I take 6 kanz, lootas kff and fill out with 30 strong boy squads and it works well, you just gota load up on boyz. I don't like to rely on the kanz cc, they tend to get smashed up quickly and they can get in the way of my boyz with their big bases if there still sitting there, 6 is almost always perfect, it leaves me with 1 or 2 when I'm at the other side to attack a tank or 2 and they are outa the way so I can get my boyz dug in. I treat it like it's a grot screen, just to get me there not to hide behind the whole time like some kan lists are.

I also can't get behind deff koptas, just from personal experience I've been underwhelmed with their impact. I have run them as you have, buzzsaw/tl rokkits but it just doesn't do it for me.

Nor can I get behind 20 strong boy squads anywhere above 1000 pts. (when talking foot slogg) They can be brought to break too easily.

6-9 kanz sounds resonable. KFF mek to keep them alive that bit longer and lots of boys to back them up. 60-90 boyz would be neat. 5 loota squads, 1-2 of those.

Kinda see why koptas might fit but you could easily take a couple of warbuggies with twin rokkits for about the same cost. *Shrug* up to OP on this one.

Except that warbuggies and deffkoptas fill completely different roles.

To each their own; I'm an avid tournament player, but not everyone plays for the same reason or return.

I think that kan wall begins to lose strength at 1000+ but other than that i side with dash but he is a fairly nice tournament player i also hope to become a tournament player but i play wolves which you have sipped some haterade aganist but maybe you need to go at space wolves if you had to take steleks unforunate remarks

Dashofpepper wrote:Except that warbuggies and deffkoptas fill completely different roles.

To each their own; I'm an avid tournament player, but not everyone plays for the same reason or return.

I know, and I respect your input it's usually on the spot and bears some weight.

But when I disagree, I disagree . Besides, I just got back from proving my point in a 2 v 1 ig/eldar vs me. Lasting damage to my 6 kanz? 1 DCCW destroyed, some good rolls with my kff admittedly but 6 kanz under that kff can weather a storm. I'll stick that win in my pipe and smoke it.

Dashofpepper wrote:Except that warbuggies and deffkoptas fill completely different roles.

To each their own; I'm an avid tournament player, but not everyone plays for the same reason or return.

Which is funny because when most people want to play an army that you do, if they dont cookie cutter your builds, you argue back and forth about why their builds are the kings of suck basically. It might be in good fun for you, as with the Redbeard biker army you two were going on about. But not everyone gets that your either trying to help out or having fun with them.

In saying that, totally agree on koptas/buggies filling different roles. They are different completely as far as play goes. I prefer them, because I can field alot more for pretty cheap, they grant 4+ cover to pretty much anything behind them, I can straddle them and park sideways to cover anything thats big, they pump out rokkits and have an armor value. Sure, its 10 opentopped and alot of people laugh at that. But, Ive had that easy to break AV10 stop a gak load of attacks that would of smoked a bike or kopta. not to mention fast, and can keep up with a mech build if I went that route.


Where as koptas are suicide units. They are truly good at what they are used for. Buggies I expect to shield parts of my army that a KFF cant, and let loose a rokkit volley that can smoke some vehicles/MC. Koptas are almost the opposite. They zoom in strait to the enemy line and cause a first (sometimes second) turn scare tactic. They buy your army time, and will hopefully pop a few transports or artillery on the way out. But they cost more, like double or so

Run 9 kans at 1500 points!

Kans are fantastic little buggers arnt they?

KingCracker wrote:Kans are fantastic little buggers arnt they?

Depends if Im running behind them going 'WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH' or shooting my Manticore at them. Respectively.

I can't see the advantage to taking less than 9 Kans. Once you've decided to run them, they only get better in force.

I've never thought "yeah, this army has enough durability, S10 CC attacks, and BS3 S8 shooting."

I do agree. I think the main reaosns people take less is 1. trying to save points in a smaller game, and 2. dont have 9 kans yet. I mean, that is a bit of cash to get 9 kans. But I have to say, Im glad GW decided on putting 3 kans in one box. When they were reworking the Orks, I had a feeling they would pull a GW thing and do either 2 or a single blister of one.

To me the limiting factor is time for tournament play. Generally you get two hours to fight to some conclusion so the more movement elements you have the bigger your problem. A green tide behind a kan wall sounds viable until you figure you need to move all of that green tide. Trukks and better BW allow you to reduce movement in the early turns to 3 or 4 elements instead of 100. Give yourself time to think instead of feeling like you are playing against a stop watch. I would say 9 KK for about 400 pts and then 3 BW gives you some hard hitting stuff. Add in some lootas (that never move) and you will have an effective force to hit any opponent with.

If you're going to run kans - you need 9. At 1000 pts, 9 kans is a beast to deal with. I will argue against internet wisdom and say that all kans do not need to be rokkits. Depending on your other units, you can run your kans everyturn - along with the 60 angry boys behind them. The true strenght of the kan wall is not the kans - althought they are awesome - its the boys behind them thay they are protecting.

Kan wall is great at low points, not so much at higher points. Kan wall is viable up to 1500, anything higher and there is just too many AT weapons to take them out. At 1000 pts, they will run right over almost anything.