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So I don't play High Elves and I don't own their codex, but there seemed to be a point of contention on the following:

Teclis/the Book of Hoeth says that any spell with a successful casting roll including a double is cast with irresistible force.

The BRB says that any spell cast with irresistible force is automatically successful.

So, is the HE book redundant? Right now, I'm leaning towards "maybe". But I don't have that book. So here's what I found in the BRB to help this along:

p.32 "...if the casting result equals or exceeds the spell's casting value, the spell is cast..."
p.32 "...if the result is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed..."

So, the word "successful" isn't explicitly used here, but "failed", its opposite, is. Is that good enough?

p.33 "...a spell cast with irresistible force automatically succeeds, even if the casting total is not enough..."

I think the answer lies in this question: is the automatic success of a spell's casting part of the benefit of the rule "irresistible force", and does the High Elf codex change that definition? And where, exactly, is a normal "successful" casting defined, rather than implied?
If things were written a little clearer, I think we could chalk up the potential silliness to circular logic. But, alas, we use language. And language is limited. So my question still lies unanswered.

Couldn't help myself. Curiosity. Thanks, everyone.

"any spell with a successful casting roll including a double is cast with irresistible force."
That's pretty simple.
A + B = C
A) cast successfully
B) Includes a double
C) If requirements met, spell becomes irresistible.
You cannot say that the double counts as irresistible, because irresistible counts as successful. That's simply not true; the book only grants Irresistible after the two other requirements are met (meeting casting value, and doubles).



You also cannot argue that it's just old wording for the last edition either. Last edition you didn't need to meet the casting value for irresistible either. So clearly, the wording, and intent, in both editions, is Casting Value Met, + Doubles before you gain Irresistible.
Really, Teclis is good enough without trying to GrammarHammer him better.

-Matt

In 7th, the book was worded differently, which meant different steps towards the answer. That's all I meant.

If...if the HE Codex said "...any attempt to cast a spell that meets or exceeds the casting value and includes a double...", that would make things absolutely cut-and-dry. The only real issue, then, is that the BRB doesn't (to my knowledge) state that such a roll is "successful". But it does say that a roll that doesn't is a "failure", so I'm satisfied.

Thanks for that; just needed to swap out a word for a phrase to see it clearly.

Also, I'm not trying to make Teclis better. As stated. Don't play 'em. Don't intend to. Don't practically care about the answer (just impractically). Thanks again.

However the english language takes care of that - you are trying to perform an action, and that action is only succesful if you meet the casting value.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the first "that". Not that I really need to; I have been shown the evidence required to get me off the fence (which wasn't really evidence so much as a better perspective to look at things from), so every aspect "that" could apply to is one I'll agree with.
Though I'd also hazard you don't need a "however" in there. No one here is going to say otherwise. But I'm sure someone out there in the web-wilderness would.

What it means is that a Double is an Irristable force if the casting value is met.

the IF given by the Book is conditional, that the casting value be met.


What the Book gives you is the possaility of a IF without a miscast.

normall irristable force is: the Spell can't be dispelled and you roll on the Miscast table.


the Book lets you get the "Can't be dispelled" without the "Roll on the miscast table"

...Yes.