Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In a game I was playing at the weekend, a lone powerfist marine was attacking an immobilised predator, and was standing in the location seen on the picture (he is the black circle). My opponent said that the turret could turn round and shoot, but my argument was that the barrel of the gun would be over his head, and thus through TLOS shjould not be able to shoot him.

Who was right?

Depends on how you want to play it !

The rulebook on page 59 has some illustrations for tanks and line of sight. If you see on the illustrations for different weapons, you have a LoS on everything that is in front of the vehicle.

I would say that since it is a turret mounted weapon, he can shoot normally, no matter if the model is below the actual weapon.

But isnt LOS drawn from the barrel of the gun? You can't draw backwards from there surely?

From what I can see on the illustrations (and more specifically from the vindicator LoS) the LoS is drawn from the base of the weapon not the tip

If it is a turret mounted weapon, it should have a 360° field of fire.
He should be able to rotate the turret 180° and shoot the marine.

But when he rotated the turret, the barrel of the gun was a good few centimetres past the marine - so I ask again, how can he shoot something that's behind him? Do we have boomerang bullets now?

As I said before, check the illustration on the BRB page 59 and see that vindicator, LoS is drawn from the base of the weapon and not the tip. So this also goes for any turret mounted weapon. I guess you were confused since the measuring is done from the tip of the weapon.

For starters it's a predator, NOT a vindicator.

Secondly, how can LOS be drawn from the base of the weapon but range be measured from the tip? That makes NO sense whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also, even if you DID take LOS from the base of the weapon, when you squint down to the start of the turret - you wouldn't see the marine at all - so by that logic how can you target him?

Yes I got that it's a predator. I was mentioning the Vindicator illustration to point out from where the LoS is drawn. Well not everything makes sense in the game.

How about the rule where it says: "Turret-mounted weapons can usually rotate 360º, together with the entire turret, unless the design of the model revents this." So it can turn the turret and face your model. Then since the ark of sight begins from the base of the predators weapon and not the tip, he can clearly see your model.

If you are looking for a more reasonable explanation, check out the predator turret and you will see that the aiming mechanism is located on top of the turret. [image here]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I get what you're saying but in cases like this common sense does not apply ! Only what the rules say ! IRL it would be impossible to target a soldier that was standing right in front of a tank ! I am 100% with you on this ! I am just explaining why I believe this rule goes as I say

The rules say to trace LoS "along the barrel".

When you trace LoS along the barrel, can you see the model? No? Then it is not in LoS.

coredump wrote:The rules say to trace LoS "along the barrel".

When you trace LoS along the barrel, can you see the model? No? Then it is not in LoS.

The rules say "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I guess the wording "from each weapons’ mounting and along its barrel" means the base of the weapon is where LoS is drawn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. Found it ! "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are
measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst
line of sight is determined from the weapon’s mounting
point and along its barrel"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a crappy illustration on how this works according to the rules

Looks like the model would be in the tanks 'blind spot' to me so the main gun would be useless here, however a pintle / cupola mounted heavy bolter would be able to target him as this also has a 360º arc of fire...

In our WWII games with tanks we always play the rule that main guns have a minimum range but nothing like this seems to be stated in 40k from what I can see?

For this scenario and if i where GM, my ruling would be that the minimum range is from the back of the gun to the front of the gun - so in terms of a Predator 2.5" for the Autocannon and 2" for twin linked lascannon

If you don't have the luxury of a GM, the dice might need to decide the outcome i.e. each roll and highest wins the argument for that round (and only that round).

Remember it's just a game and the spirit it should be played in is of 'friendly' rivalry...

I think thats one hell of a liberty to take with the TLOS rules. By that definition, you can draw LOS from any part of any weapon. Is that right? Because it certainly doesn't seem so.

@Ruglud - The only weapon the predator had left was the turret discussed in the OP.

Well although I agree that this is impossible IRL, I disagree on game terms since the rules clearly state where you draw LoS from.

Here is another more detailed illustration, where you can see that LoS is drawn from the mounting and down the barrel.



Since the model is within the LoS of the Predator the Predator can fire normally. Now on measuring terms , since you need
to measure from the muzzle of the weapon, measuring would be a negative number

Well if I had to rule this, I'd say that LoS is drawn normally but since the measurement cannot be done, the Pred won't fire.

Other than that, if you disagree strongly about that with your opponent, you can roll a D6 (The gentlemen way ).
On a 3+ he can shoot, otherwise he can't .

liam0404 wrote:But when he rotated the turret, the barrel of the gun was a good few centimetres past the marine - so I ask again, how can he shoot something that's behind him? Do we have boomerang bullets now?

Irrelevant. By the rules, turret mounted weapons have 360 sight. Real life has nothing to do with the game, barrel over the marine.

I wouldn't roll a D6 for this, because it's not possible for the predator to fire here - how on earth could it be? Like I said earlier in this thread - do we have boomerang bullets now?

No, you draw LOS along the barrel - so it goes in a straight line ALONG the barrel

Your diagram is incorrect, as LOS has not been drawn along the barrel, just from the base

Essentially: the barrel is a sight. You have to look down the LENGTH of the sight, not off to the side.

carmachu wrote:

liam0404 wrote:But when he rotated the turret, the barrel of the gun was a good few centimetres past the marine - so I ask again, how can he shoot something that's behind him? Do we have boomerang bullets now?

Irrelevant. By the rules, turret mounted weapons have 360 sight. Real life has nothing to do with the game, barrel over the marine.

Actually, this is completely relevant. Can you measure backwards from the muzzle of the gun? No you cannot. The turret is facing directly away from the target, and therefore has 0% chance of hitting him.Therefore you cannot fire the turret weapon at the Marine.

Well since there are no rules that state that this kind of firing cannot be done, I guess
your best bet is to roll the D6 since you can't support (at least not by the rules) that it can't.

Also don't get so upset. I am just trying to figure it out just as you

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you draw LOS along the barrel - so it goes in a straight line ALONG the barrel

Your diagram is incorrect, as LOS has not been drawn along the barrel, just from the base

Essentially: the barrel is a sight. You have to look down the LENGTH of the sight, not off to the side.

This is the most coherent way that the rule has been stated so far. As I said earlier in this thread, squint down, and look along the barrel for yourself - is the marine at the end of it? No? Tough luck - no shot can be fired.

liam0404 wrote:I think thats one hell of a liberty to take with the TLOS rules. By that definition, you can draw LOS from any part of any weapon. Is that right? Because it certainly doesn't seem so.

@Ruglud - The only weapon the predator had left was the turret discussed in the OP.

Unfortunately with the different games systems I've played there are always rules that can be disagreed upon, especially if they seem to favour the other player and you'd just pulled a possible game winning move on them...

Didn't catch that the main gun was all that was left, sorry...

Pantso wrote:Oh. Found it ! "When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are
measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon, whilst
line of sight is determined from the weapon’s mounting
point and along its barrel"

Well, this says it all, range is measured from the muzzle. Good find Pantso, what page is this on?
Liam0404, you can show this to your opponent and have a self satisfied smirk when doing so...

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you draw LOS along the barrel - so it goes in a straight line ALONG the barrel

Your diagram is incorrect, as LOS has not been drawn along the barrel, just from the base

Essentially: the barrel is a sight. You have to look down the LENGTH of the sight, not off to the side.

Nosferatu Ok so the LoS line is the small black line. Correct? Like the black line inside the green ark on this illustration



Also it states along the barrel. Not that models aimed need to be after the barrel.
So LoS can be drawn normally. The only thing that seems to not work here is the measuring thing
But for this I can't find anything that states that you can't measure this way since you measure from the muzzle.

guys I'm going to have to call BS on this!
Along the barrel is what is relevant here. Thefore the LOS or otherwise the green bit that Pantso draws on his ilustrations is a line that extends from the mounting
point and along its barrel BUT starts at the muzzle of the gun. OBVIOUSLY.

If the gun barrel can point at the model, it can't shoot it

Pantso - how are you managing to get LOS to something that is BELOW the barrel?

Sight along the barrel - if you can see the marine along this sight, you are good to shoot. If the marine is physically below the barrel, you CANNOT DRAW LOS to him.

Ok my whole argument is BS since I just found out the True LoS rule !

"Line of Sight Warhammer 40,000 uses what we call ‘true line
of sight’ for shooting attacks. This means that you take the positions of models and terrain at face
value, and simply look to see if your warriors have a view to their targets. This is different to other,
more abstract systems where terrain is assigned a height value and you have to calculate what
warriors can see. We have chosen true line of sight because it makes the game feel much more
cinematic and ‘real’. There’s nothing quite like getting a ‘model’s eye view’ to bring the game to
life. Of course, this method does mean that occasionally there are border-line cases when it is
quite hard to decide if a model can see a target or not, but sporting players will always be generous
and give their opponent the benefit of the doubt."

Ok now I get it ! You can't draw LoS since you need to draw a straight line beginning from the mounting, going down the barrel and ending at the model. I was under the idea that LoS was determined from above just as illustrated on page 59 of the BRB.

Nope, 40k is a 3d game - its just difficult to show this in clear diagrams.

Kewl Ok ! So the OP was right ! Glad that cleared everything out !

If all the images showing arc of sight for the sponson-mounted weapons are to be used as a reference,
they clearly show the area on the sides of the Predator to be withing the arc of sight for the weapons,
even though the barrel would extend beyond a model standing there. By these images, a model standing behind the
tank would be withing LoS of the turret mounted gun, and the question would be if the measuring of range
would prevent shooting.

All the rules say, is that the target must be withing LoS, and within range(of the barrel in this case, but it doesn't say range has
to be measured in the same direction as LoS is drawn, just that it has to be within LoS, and range) .
My point here is: the game is an abstraction to simplify all the complex factors that would be involved, and if something in
the game wouldn't make sense in RL, it's fine since it would be impossible to get the game completely realistic
in every aspect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope, 40k is a 3d game - its just difficult to show this in clear diagrams.

According to the rules, we should:
"Assume that guns can swivel vertically roughly 45° even if the barrel of the model itself can not physically do that!"
Vertically can be down as well as up (something that would have the barrel pointing pretty much directly at
a model standing behind the predator).

I'm not saying it makes sense, just that it's how the rules are written, and since the game is an abstraction,
rules > real life logic.

Accersitus wrote:If all the images showing arc of sight for the sponson-mounted weapons are to be used as a reference,
they clearly show the area on the sides of the Predator to be withing the arc of sight for the weapons,
even though the barrel would extend beyond a model standing there. By these images, a model standing behind the
tank would be withing LoS of the turret mounted gun, and the question would be if the measuring of range
would prevent shooting.

All the rules say, is that the target must be withing LoS, and within range(of the barrel in this case, but it doesn't say range has
to be measured in the same direction as LoS is drawn, just that it has to be within LoS, and range) .
My point here is: the game is an abstraction to simplify all the complex factors that would be involved, and if something in
the game wouldn't make sense in RL, it's fine since it would be impossible to get the game completely realistic
in every aspect.

Well that's exactly where I was stuck before ! But since we are using True LoS, the shot cannot be done and it's
one of the cases where you need to argue enough with your opponent to get what's right !

If you are going by 'true LOS down the length of the barrel' it throws up all sorts of issues, as the barrel on the pred only depresses as far as parallel with the ground so anything below this height cannot be hit, i.e. 99% of infantry.
Leman Russ tanks, especialy the demolisher, would have even more problems as they are taller and some of the weapons don't even depress that far down.
As Accersitus wrote, a bit of simplification/abstraction is necessary when dealing with these things.