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I was thinking, has anyone heard about it being possible for (Craftworld) Eldar to become Dark Eldar, or Dark Eldar becoming (Craftworld) Eldar, in the current timeline?
I haven't heard anything about it, but if it is possible it might make up for some quite cool fluff...

Personaly I think it is more likely that an Eldar would become Dark than the other way around, considering that it would probably be practically impossibe for a Dark Eldar to get rid of all the corruption in his mind.

Well, you never know...

Not completly improbable, yet highly unlikely.
D&D did it with Drizit and Viscona, they are both Drow (dark elves) that turned from the evil of their race.
If you can come up with aplosable reason as to why the DE have become good or the good gone bad then I see no problem with it. You might get the odd Fluff Nazi kicking up a stink but hay, screw'em

Saintspirit wrote:I was thinking, has anyone heard about it being possible for (Craftworld) Eldar to become Dark Eldar, or Dark Eldar becoming (Craftworld) Eldar, in the current timeline?

...

I could see how, for example a "regular" Eldar corsair or pirate captain might get sucked down into ..."the dark side".


..Upon reflection I guess you could perhaps push up a kind of tragic hero ( in the dramatic sense of the word) if, say, an Eldar had his soulstone destroyed/stolen/plot deviced leaving him with no option really but to commit to the DE ways... maybe ..?

Nice reds8n. That's a great example. Especially since that book is fairly new.

I'd see no reason not to, to be honest. The eldar live a much more peaceful life. It would be appealing to a kabalite guy, I suppose.

Being an Eldar player myself, i have looked into this many times. Dark Eldar are not 'Dark' in the way that Sith lords are, Dark Eldar have refused to give up their free willed ways for the discipline of the Craftworlds. Their corruption links them to Slaanesh but they do not worship her/him, instead they hide inside the webway. I still haven't found out why they must imbibe of the life force of others to sustain themselves, only that they do this, kinda like vampires. I suppose the reason is that Slaanesh is slowly draining away their life force, so they use others to 'top up' as it were. anyways, i digress a bit, it is possible for a Dark Eldar to return to the Craftworld just not very likely to happen, once the Dark Eldar has gone through certain rituals to cleanse them of their taint, they would then be bound to a spirit stone and the draining of their lifeforce would stop, but the Dark Eldar even after the rituals and such would still not be trusted very much by others around him. It is far easier for a Craftworld Eldar to lose his way and end up as a Dark Eldar, since all it takes is for the Eldar to give in to his will and start doing as he wished, when he wished, and how he wishes to, essentially removing himself from the Path of Discipline that all Craftworld Eldar follow.

SebastionSynn wrote:Being an Eldar player myself, i have looked into this many times. Dark Eldar are not 'Dark' in the way that Sith lords are, Dark Eldar have refused to give up their free willed ways for the discipline of the Craftworlds. Their corruption links them to Slaanesh but they do not worship her/him, instead they hide inside the webway. I still haven't found out why they must imbibe of the life force of others to sustain themselves, only that they do this, kinda like vampires. I suppose the reason is that Slaanesh is slowly draining away their life force, so they use others to 'top up' as it were. anyways, i digress a bit, it is possible for a Dark Eldar to return to the Craftworld just not very likely to happen, once the Dark Eldar has gone through certain rituals to cleanse them of their taint, they would then be bound to a spirit stone and the draining of their lifeforce would stop, but the Dark Eldar even after the rituals and such would still not be trusted very much by others around him. It is far easier for a Craftworld Eldar to lose his way and end up as a Dark Eldar, since all it takes is for the Eldar to give in to his will and start doing as he wished, when he wished, and how he wishes to, essentially removing himself from the Path of Discipline that all Craftworld Eldar follow.

Indeed, exactly how I imagined it would be. It's true!

So how about a dark Eldar who returns to a Craftworld and begs for cleansing, and after scrutiny by Farseers are granted it, and turns out to be an excellent tactician and commander - but there are still many who don't trust him? How does that sound for a background for an (named) Autarch?

Saintspirit wrote:Personaly I think it is more likely that an Eldar would become Dark than the other way around, considering that it would probably be practically impossibe for a Dark Eldar to get rid of all the corruption in his mind.

What you're overlooking is that the three other Eldar cultures (Harlequins, Craftworld Eldar, and Exodites) have developed the cultures that they have specifically to overcome this corruption - which is essentially lurking at the fringes of the minds of all Eldar. The Craftworld paths lock an Eldar's thinking into a particular pattern, and that should be able to help a former dark eldar overcome the corruption. That assumes, of course, that the dark eldar in question is serious about wanting to join a craftworld. A given dark eldar wouldn't instantly be able to join The Path of Peace and Light (to make up a name at random), but he or she would be able to join another Path that fits better with his or her initial outlook, and gradually over the centuries work his or her way toward more peaceful paths.


An eldar from one of the other cultures can always just go to Commoragh at will, but they're going to be at a very huge disadvantage. All of the eldar living there are protected by the kabals that they're a part of. You'd better have someone waiting for you when you get there who has already decided to accept you into their organization, or you're likely to end up dead on the streets within a day of your arrival.

I can see an eldar warrior that loses his path beco me an incubi, he just has to beat one.

Eumerin wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Personaly I think it is more likely that an Eldar would become Dark than the other way around, considering that it would probably be practically impossibe for a Dark Eldar to get rid of all the corruption in his mind.

What you're overlooking is that the three other Eldar cultures (Harlequins, Craftworld Eldar, and Exodites) have developed the cultures that they have specifically to overcome this corruption - which is essentially lurking at the fringes of the minds of all Eldar.

Craftworlders are New-Age faux Buddhists, who constantly walk the edge of catastrophic failure and are slowly dying out as their philosophy proves too difficult for a sizable percent of each generation to adhere to, leading them to wander the webway or become corsairs, who are only a step from becoming the same as the Dark Eldar raider fleets existing outside of Commoragh. Exodites are anarcho-primitivists too absorbed in day-to-day survival to have time for decadence, and don't really appear to be doing anything else on account of being in middle of nowhere with no desire to be anywhere else. Harlequins are protected by the Laughing God, and would appear to be doing well for themselves, presumably drawing recruits from the other Eldar populations or some such, but can't really be considered in the same light as the others, being more of a pan-Eldar priest/ambassador caste than a distinct population.

In contrast, the Dark Eldar have a city that is described as "no mere metropolis, for it is to the largest of Imperial Hives as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites", and considering that it contains seven stars, I don't think that's much of an exaggeration. Think on that for a second. Remember that the largest of Imperial hives house hundreds of billions into the low trillions (and then there's Terra, which is just one big Hive with a stated population on the order of 32 trillion). Commoragh grew from scattered survivors of the Fall into a city with a population that dwarfs the Imperial military (which is consistently placed in the low trillions: the Guard is described as outnumbering the Space Marines "a million to one", while worlds like Armageddon are tithed for less than .1% of their population (amounting to a draft of 100 million in the case of Armageddon)), while those Craftworlds that survived have slowly dwindled away over the millenia.

I'd say that's a pretty good indication of which philosophy works better for Eldar. The rigid warrior ascetics dwindle away after starting with everything, and the quasi-social-darwinist hedonists swell into the largest trained warrior population in the galaxy after starting as scattered refugees. The Dark Eldar might have their souls slowly draining away, but they're reinvigorated by any intense emotion, leaving them healthier than they started.


So yes, I'd say that Craftworlders join the ranks of Commorite or exiled Dark Eldar fleets on a not-too-infrequent basis, while there's not much reason for Dark Eldar to defect to the Craftworlders demonstrably suicidal ideology, though it's presumably physically possible for them to do so, and I can imagine the Harlequins may well recruit from their numbers as well, if they recruit from outside their own numbers (since we don't really know all that much about them aside from "they're disciples of the Laughing God who guard the Black Library, perform the histories of the Eldar for their kin, and serve as intermediaries between the different Eldar populations and factions"). Of course, the psychic ability of the Commorites has atrophied over the years, which might preclude integration into most Craftworld paths, and actively psychic individuals are ostensibly barred from entering Commoragh, theoretically precluding most non-Commorite Eldar from entering it, though then again, the Harlequins come and go as they please, and they count psykers among their number (like the Shadowseer)...

So how about a dark Eldar who returns to a Craftworld and begs for cleansing, and after scrutiny by Farseers are granted it, and turns out to be an excellent tactician and commander - but there are still many who don't trust him? How does that sound for a background for an (named) Autarch?

Sure, after all it is your army, not Games Workshop's. There's no reason you can't do anything as long as you have a plausible storyline, in the case you mentioned, your Autarch for some reason or other, possibly because he'd been betrayed once too often and barely escaped each time, or he'd had enough of wanton bloodshed and was looking for something new to occupy himself with, finally decided to give up the 'Dark side' of his nature and returned to his craftworld, Through many years of selfless toil he would eventually have earned the trust of some of his fellows. having already known the ways of war, someone would have presented him to whichever shrine it was that started him on the path of the Autarch. Remember an Autarch is one who has not only lost himself to the Path of the Warrior, but has lost himself to the point that he now knows no other ambition than to master every aspect of war, and therefore has trained in ALL of the Aspect Warrior Shrines. During his training it would become obvious that he had tactical talents, and as those talents became more and more prevalent through various different battles, his fellow warriors would trust him more and more. Also, there are the Farseers, who at some time would have gleaned from the future paths that this individual would play an important role in leading the Craftworld through it's various challenges, and it quite possibly would have been a Farseer who vouched for your Autarch in the first place.

In my army i wanted a sergeant type for those units that did not have Exarchs or some other type of leader unit, namely guardians. So, all the sergeants of my guardian units do not wear helmets, and they carry close combat weapons as well, gonna be interesting when i finally get my hands on storm guardians since all storm guardians also carry close combat weapons. In any case I also wanted a leader for my jetbike squad, so I converted up a jetbike and stuck the old model with the half leather jacket on the bike. His story is that he was one of those who was wounded during a battle in my craftworld, his bike was shattered and so were several of his bones. an Exodite found him, and took him back to his home to care for him. During the long years of his physical rehabilitation he found that there were many things that were worthy of study in the Exodites ways, but he longed for the days when he rode his bike through the Aether winds of the Webway. Unable to leave the craftworld, he eventually travelled it's surface and made his way back to the capitol city. There he settled down to renew his life and over time has become the trusted leader of his jetbike squad.

I know there are things in that background that are kinda confusing, I promise this weekend that i will have pics of my Eldar posted in the gallery, and that in the Backgrounds forum I will also post the history of CraftWorld Utash'Te (Ooht ahsh Tay). Utash'Te being actual Eldar language that translates into English as '7 World Shell', in that Background story it will clear up some of the questions that arise from the above jetbike leaders background. BTW, since i still don't have an Autarch in my army, this converted model has become my Autarch until I do get one, then.............I will have to convert that model to make him look even cooler or swap out riders and make a new conversion bike for my jetbike sergeant.

@ Sir Psuedonymous and whoever else might be interested Since I play Eldar and not Dark Eldar, I am loathe to say this but you are correct in your statement, it is very easy for an Eldar, be they Craftworld or Exodite to lose their way and become Dark, especially those that are struck with wanderlust. As it states for Eldar Rangers, there are far more rangers that are never seen again, than there are those who eventually return to their craftworlds. There is also the fact as you stated, that the corruption is forever gnawing at the edges of their minds, after all, the Eldar did create a god, through their thoughts and actions alone.

Harlequins are another story alltogether, they can be looked at as a separate culture, since they are very nomadic at all times, unlike the Craftworld, the Exodite, and the Dark Eldar, who stay in their area, unless called away for some reason, but in reality they are a sub-sect of all three cultures. They are the memory of the Eldar race. They recruit new Harlequins from all 3 cultures of the Eldar, since they travel from world to world reminding the Eldar of the fall of their race. Someone surmised that the Harlequin are protected by the Laughing God and that is correct except for two harlequin. The ShadowSeer and the Death Jester, as stated in the new Eldar Codex, it is the ShadowSeer who takes on the role of the Dark Goddess, and in so doing she has essentially sacrificed herself to Slaanesh for when the ShadowSeer dies her soul is automatically taken to the Dark Goddess. The Death Jester is also not protected by the Laughing God, but is instead a disciple of Yneadd, The Eldar God of Death. The Death Jester takes on the role of Yneadd in the Great Dance and preaches the ways of Yneadd. The Eldar have already created this god, through their beliefs of their eventual destruction, and Yneadd watches over his disciples in his sleep. As stated when the last Eldar breathes no more, Yneadd will awaken and do battle with Slaanesh, for he will have the power of every Eldar who's soul is locked into a spirit stone, while Slaanesh will have the power of those souls that she has devoured. The Eldar also believe that Yneadd will gain more power from the death of Slaanesh as the Eldar souls she has taken are freed and that this will enable him to destroy the rest of the Gods of the universe. Through this titanic battle the universe will be destroyed and Yneadd will then remake the universe over again, setting things in motion for the Eldar to be reborn.

edited for typos

res8n hit the nail on the head with this one.

Ok, I see, so it seems that the background for my not-yet-named Autarch isn't that absurd..?
Great!
Take a look at my not-yet-created-but-will-soon-be fluff thread of my Craftworld Tonesh-Ian, the Vision of the Skies!

...Though it would be even better if Autarches were useful.

Im not trying to bug any one but ive never read that eldar are slowly dieing. I mean i have heard it plenty of times but i have never read it. Heck one time i was reading lexicanum and it said that the eldar population on craft worlds has grown however that was probably just some jerk playing tricks. So if anyone could point me in the right direction it would be grate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
O ya i also think that there are more craftworld eldy becoming pirates than dark eldar but those ushally come back to their craft worlds instead of leaving forever.

Craftworld Eldar are dying out. They already would have been extinguished, if it weren't for their Farseers.

While the Dark Eldar do face long-term concerns, like the degeneration of the webway and increasing incursions from The Warp (and even stranger realms!), they are thriving. They suffer the leeching of their souls by Slaanesh, but are able to replenish their life-force through the suffering of others.* The Eladrith Ynneas thrive.


*Note: I understand this to mean that they consume the psychic energy produced by a soul's suffering; other emotions could perhaps serve, but it is easier to inflict pain and this suits their nature anyway.

Corsairs probably are less numerous than Craftworlders or Dark Eldar, living in the margins between the two cultures. They've never really been well defined.

The Exodites are parochial in their concerns; they do OK for themselves but face extinction if attacked by any major faction, as they are tied to their worlds.

Harlequins travel amongst all other groups, and presumably recruit from all 3. Old fluff says that the ritual that frees their souls from Slaanesh's grip involves possession by a lesser daemon of She Who Thirsts, which is then exorcised. Death Jesters and Shadowseers have unique roles among the Harelquins but only the SOLITAIRE is truly damned and forfeit to Slaanesh. However, they are the most singularly skilled dancers and fighters even among Harlequins. They play the role of Slaanesh during performances. In-game they used to be deployed and equipped something like Imperial Assassins, but they haven't been a unit since the Harelquin codex was canned.

but only the SOLITAIRE is truly damned and forfeit to Slaanesh.

I stand corrected, he's right, it is the solitaire who plays the role of the Dark Goddess, not the Shadowseer. i got somewhat confused, my apologies.

...Though it would be even better if Autarches were useful.

Autarchs not useful? are you kidding me? they are extremely useful, they are one step below a Phoenix Lord at less than half the cost. run them in a unit and equip them similar to that unit and they can be the difference between winning and losing. IE: put them on a jetbike, place him with a bunch of guardians for a meatshield, give him a laser lance and a fusion gun, and your Autarch becomes a hunter killer in disguise, put him in the middle of Shining Spears and watch them terrorize the opponent. Imagine this one, give him a warp generator put him in a group of spiders, and equip him with Power Weapon, Mandiblasters, and fusion gun, he will get 3 att's, +1 for the mandiblasters, and +1 for the charge for 5 att's total, all at WS 6, and all can be considered power weapon hits with no armour saves allowed, add to that the Exarch armed with Powerblades at WS 5, w/ 2 att's, +1 for additional close combat weapon, and +1 for the charge = 4 power weapon att's w/ no armour save, means you have a unit that is going to turn an enemy squad into Kibbles and Bits, especially with the Exarchs ability of withdraw. Jump in, shoot like hell, assault like crazy, then jump out, and do it all over again.

Run him with a squad of Reapers and you basically have a super Reaper, while i would prefer to have a falcon on the board myself, this will do in a pinch. Just don't make the mistake of running him with Hawk wings and a lasblaster, i find Hawks to be pretty much useless. On the other hand there's the new forgeworld Aspect Warriors where you could give him wings and run him with that unit even though they have jetpacks, because both hawks and shadow spectres are considered jump infantry which means they move in the same way, in which case the lasblaster is the better choice. That is until GW changes the codex and allows the Autarch to take a prism rifle, which would be no end of murder for the enemy.

Run a Farseer and Warlocks as a nearby unit, or Farseer and Jetbike guardians, then doom the enemy and guide the Autarchs unit. This will allow the Autarch to unleash hell upon the enemy, with virtually no losses to the Autarchs unit, since there won't be that many enemies left standing. And let's not forget the Autarchs ability to add to reserve rolls, with one Autarch on 2nd turn means you only need a 3+ during a dawn of war game to give yourself a very much needed edge against the enemy, and if you have two Autarchs on the table then you only need a 2+ on the 2nd turn. you could conceivably have all reserve units on the board during the 2nd turn while your opponent is struggling to bring his stuff in.

No, Autarchs are useful. Where the eldar have a problem is their weak str, and low toughness. In my opinion this is stupid, this is a race that has at one time ruled the galaxy, and has mastered warp travel. Anyone who can do that can surely come up with some kind of field to protect them from incoming fire. Oh wait, we have that, it's called a shimmershield, but for some reason we can only make it work when the enemy is right in our faces, which is the last place an Eldar wants someone, unless it is the Eldar who are doing the bashing. Let us not forget since we have weapons that are psychically attuned to the user and can only be fired or wielded by those with psychics, doesn't it make sense that we could tap into the wraithbone of the arnour we wear to enhance our str and speed even greater than what it is? I guess not.

edited for previous post correction.

SebastionSynn wrote:No, Autarchs are useful. Where the eldar have a problem is their weak str, and low toughness. In my opinion this is stupid, this is a race that has at one time ruled the galaxy, and has mastered warp travel. Anyone who can do that can surely come up with some kind of field to protect them from incoming fire. Oh wait, we have that, it's called a shimmershield, but for some reason we can only make it work when the enemy is right in our faces, which is the last place an Eldar wants someone, unless it is the Eldar who are doing the bashing. Let us not forget since we have weapons that are psychically attuned to the user and can only be fired or wielded by those with psychics, doesn't it make sense that we could tap into the wraithbone of the arnour we wear to enhance our str and speed even greater than what it is? I guess not.

edited for previous post correction.

So. Eldar should be Toughness 4 and Strength 4 at the least, right?

So. Eldar should be Toughness 4 and Strength 4 at the least, right?

@ Emperor's Faithful - to answer this question here in detail will draw this thread severely off topic. so i give you the short answer. no, they should not be, they should be equal to all other armies, which cannot be achieved with any degree of fairness, by releasing one codex then waiting 6 mths before releasing the next one and so on, and so on. By taking this standard of action you facilitate a complete lack of fairness for every army that is played at one time or another due to not having a codex for the recent rules or not being able to compete with something that has been placed in a given codex.

at any rate, back to the topic at hand, the reality of the Eldar race, is that there is a steady change in relations at any one given time, as Dark Eldar grow tired of the decadence of thier people and look for something new to play with, Craftworld Eldar become weary of maintaining a constant state of discipline, and Exodite Eldar become tired of the day to day hassle of breaking their backs for little to no gain, or decide that they have had enough of living wild and go back to a state of technology. look at us Homo Sapiens, we live to around 75 - 100 years, and we grow bored with stuff on a daily basis, so to would someone who lives for hundreds or thousands of years. After a while they would hunger for anything that was a new experience, and so my belief is that there is a constant flow of Eldar between all their different factions and that there is no such thing as a true Carftworld Eldar or Dark Eldar, or Exodite. Those terms are there, merely so that GW can maintain a semblance of separation between the different factions, and their differing politics.

You said "Eldar have a problem with weak strength and low toughness. In my opinion this is stupid."

There is not, and never has been, any sort of fluff or cannon that would support the notion that an Eldar was significantly stronger or more resilient than a human. Faster and more lithe yes (which is represented in the stats) but not stronger or tougher.

Eldrad wrote:Im not trying to bug any one but ive never read that eldar are slowly dieing. I mean i have heard it plenty of times but i have never read it. Heck one time i was reading lexicanum and it said that the eldar population on craft worlds has grown however that was probably just some jerk playing tricks. So if anyone could point me in the right direction it would be grate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
O ya i also think that there are more craftworld eldy becoming pirates than dark eldar but those ushally come back to their craft worlds instead of leaving forever.

I remember reading somewhere that Eldar reproduce at a much slower rate than any other race in the galaxy (bar the necrons, who dont reproduce period). This is in part due to how long they live, which exceeds that of a human's lifespan several folds.


As for Eldar having low toughness, it's likely a stigma passed from their Elven roots, where Elves tend to be squishy wizards and archers rather than brutish front-line warriors in most settings. The individual guardian, going by stats and fluff, is just as durable, if not more so, than any human. However they prefer lightweight armor and speed over heavy exo suits and brute force, hence why they seem squishy (two water balloons in armor. One is in a stocking with plastic plates glued on it, while the other is encased in a ball of hard metal. Which one's squishier?).

It used to be that warlocks and Farseers were T4, because the use of their psychic powers caused their bones to slowly turn into wraithbone. Almost an inversion of the "frail caster".