Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi my fellow dakkites,
I was recently flicking and reading up on the BA for a pre-heresy/heresy-era army i'm hoping to make using the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, and I couldn't help put feel a bit sorry for Magnus the Red and the sacking of Prospero, Now, i'm not saying he was right to use magic when forbade by the Emperor but it wasn't justly of the Emperor to unleash Russ and the Wolves on Magnus when he could have eliminated the Horus Heresy altogether.
So, I was wondering, whatever you think, whether Guilliman should have made the Codex, whether the possesion of Fulgrim by his inner-daemon was right, whether Dorn should have turned to Chaos, whatever you think, everything and anything about the Horus Heresy, please post.

crimson

The emperor didn't want the wolves to burn prospero it was horus who made them do that.

In my opinion the raven guard, salamanders and iron hands should have returned to terra instead of being sent to istvaan, surely the word bearers, night lords, alpha legion and iron warriors have continued to istvaan or gone straight to terra where 6 legions would have been waiting instead of 3 and they would have known who the traitors were from the start.

Dorn should not have turned to chaos ,he was to much of a good guy.

Sangius should have been more carefull with the teleporter (he knew horus would kill him) he would have been more valuable if he assisted the emporer whilst he was fighting horus insatead of dying before the emporer got there.

Oh and Jaghati Khan should have had more credit for riding on top of a razorback.

Lion el jhonson was smart beacuse he waited to see who won before he got to terra.

Oh and one more thing, Lion el jhonsons name means son of the forrest so a "don't go into the forest" translates in to calibanate as "don't go into the jhonson"

moonshine wrote: Dorn should not have turned to chaos ,he was to much of a good guy.

When did he turn to chaos?

No the question was should dorn have turned to chaos? and I said no he should not have turned to chaos (sorry if that was confusing)

What that confused me as well.

What I believe moonshine is saying is that he agrees with the decisions Dorn made resulting in him NOT turning to Chaos. As in he agrees with the current events and wouldn't change them to have Dorn on the other side.

Yeh, I do agree moonshine, Dorn is TO much of a good guy, but listen up anyone and everyone, I'm not saying answer the stuff I posted in my OP rather I want you to do that and just put what you thought of the Horus Heresy and what you thought should have happened.

moonshine wrote:In my opinion the raven guard, salamanders and iron hands should have returned to terra instead of being sent to istvaan, surely the word bearers, night lords, alpha legion and iron warriors have continued to istvaan or gone straight to terra where 6 legions would have been waiting instead of 3 and they would have known who the traitors were from the start.

Dorn should not have turned to chaos ,he was to much of a good guy.

Sangius should have been more carefull with the teleporter (he knew horus would kill him) he would have been more valuable if he assisted the emporer whilst he was fighting horus insatead of dying before the emporer got there.

to answer your points moonshine

1) Iron hands salalmanders and Raven guard: why would they have returned to Terra when they believed they had 4 loyal legions backing them up? it makes no sense short of psychic premonition for them to have returned to terra, true it would have been better for the loyalists but that was kinda the whole point of Horus' plan, to break 3 loyal legions before the war had even started.

2) sanguinius didnt make a mistake with the teleporter, no more than dorn or the Emperor himself did, some form of warp ritual scattered the teleport beams separating the Emperors strike force and preventing them from communicaiong with each other.

3) sanguinius was a primarch and due to his prior closeness with the warmaster probably felt a huge amount of personal betrayal at Horus' treachery, he wouldnt back down from a fight with him, niether would Dorn have backed down sanguinius just got there first. besides before the Heresy sanguinius was one of the few primarchs who could best Horus in combat, as far as we know Horus hadnt left the Vengeant spirit during the siege, so arguably Sanguinius didnt know what Horus had become.

Yes but surely the impirium did not belive horus would be foolish enough to let himself get outnumbered 7:4, It would have made more sence for the loyalist to wait for the traitors, someone would have let loose that the word bearers, iron warriors, alpha legion and night lords were on horus side, in tales of heresy Rogal Dorn has a spy on terra who is contacting horus.

Oh and when I said sangius should have been more carefull with the teleporter I meant sangius should have teleported near the emporer, why did sangius not tell the emporer that he had a vision of himself being killed.

One more thing, why did Alpharius not try to assasinate horus before he got to terra?

moonshine Sanguinius couldn't make his teleportation onto the Vengeful Spirit better because Horus played with the Warp purposfully to scatter Dorn, the Emperor and the Angel and when did he have a vision of himself dying, not saying you're wrong but I haven't heard of that please do tell.

Also, why would Alpharius have killed Horus, he was a turncoat.

Alpharius was still loyal and the emporer would have survived if aplharius killed him and then the great crusade could have continued beacuse the traitor legions would have fought to gain control of each other.

Ohhh right, I didn't have a clue about Alpharius being loyal, that's so good to hear, but, why is his legion now traitor if the primarch was loyal then???

Beacuse alpharius is told by a grouo of aliens that he needs to join horus beacuse if horus won the battle of terra humanity would self destruct within four generations but, well you already know how it ends. Read legion and it will reveal all.

People get WAAAAY too hung up on Alpharius being Loyal, Alpharius believes that Horus needs to win to cause a short burn out of chaos besides at this point Horus had been buffed up by the Chaos gods, If Sanguinius (one of the most martially skilled primarchs got owned Alpharius would have had little chance.

Alpharius turned traitor to allow the destruction of the Primordial Anihilator(Chaos) he knew the Emperor wanted Chaos gone so thought he could fulfil that wish, This doesnt make him loyal in Heresy terms though.

@Crimsonfist: Popular belief among the loyalists and citizens of the imperium was that sanguinius knew he was going to die, He left a single SG behind (azkaellon) to continue the order which also suggests he had an inkling he wasnt coming back, the fact he knew he was going to die but went anyway highlights his noble and selfless nature, the reason he didnt tell the Emperor was probably because he wouldnt want to seem less in his fathers eyes, he would do his duty whatever the outcome.

It's Dakkanauts.

Alpharius Omegon's situation is very intricate. For the most complete and correct account read "Legion". It is very enlightening.

In lieu of that, read this (from Lexicanum [spoilerd in case anyone doesn't want me to ruin "Legion" for them]):



The main point being that the Alpha Legion turned to Chaos with the UNIVERSE's survival at heart.

*edit: the Alpha Legion did this for the Universe, not just Humanity. Indeed to the detriment of Humanity.

Yes but why did alpharius not realize that if he killed horus the great crusade could have continued and there would be nobody to worship chaos so chaos would die.

He might have considered it but being able to acomplish it would have been a completely different matter altogether, I dont think he wouldve been capable.

I'm sure he would have accomplished it, he could have done it before the heresy, horus would never have seen it coming. What do you think would happen if the heresy never happened?

Yes but surely if Alpharius killed horus neither scenario would happen.

I still think Heresy wouldve happened, Horus wasnt the Architect of the Heresy was he? just the catalyst, the chaos gods working through Erebus and Kor Phaeron and latterly Lorgar were behind it all, Alpharius knew nothing about this, Even if he had managed to kill Horus which I doubt he could

Horus is a Primarch with more experience than Alpharius capable of shrugging off almost any physical attack and reacting in an instant to a threat, Whats more as the Warmaster, honour dictates that Alpharius would visit Horus on the Veangfull Spirit rather than Horus visiting Alpharius which means he would be surrounded by his entire legion for the most part.

Even should Alpharius have managed to slay Horus 2 things would have happened; The gods through Erebus, Lorgar and Kor Phaeron would choose another tool, Probably not one as effective but still a Primarch my money would be on Fulgrim, this would delay the Heresy at best. The gods were desperate though, The Emperors Invasion of the webway would weaken them greatly so they needed to act quickly. The second point is that Alpharius would be turned on as a traitor and his legion destroyed, Remember at this point no one else would know of Horus' eventual treachery and it would simply look like a jealous unfounded attack.

moonshine wrote:Oh and one more thing, Lion el jhonsons name means son of the forrest so a "don't go into the forest" translates in to calibanate as "don't go into the jhonson"

I think Lion El'Johnson is really a GW 'in joke' reference to the poet Lionel Pigot Johnson, who wrote the poem 'The Dark Angel' back in the late 19th century. Someone in GW obviously liked it!


The Dark Angel

Dark Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!

Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!

When music sounds, then changest thou
Its silvery to a sultry fire:
Nor will thine envious heart allow
Delight untortured by desire.

Through thee, the gracious Muses turn,
To Furies, O mine Enemy!
And all the things of beauty burn
With flames of evil ecstasy.

Because of thee, the land of dreams
Becomes a gathering place of fears:
Until tormented slumber seems
One vehemence of useless tears.

When sunlight glows upon the flowers,
Or ripples down the dancing sea:
Thou, with thy troop of passionate powers,
Beleaguerest, bewilderest, me.

Within the breath of autumn woods,
Within the winter silences:
Thy venomous spirit stirs and broods,
O Master of impieties!

The ardour of red flame is thine,
And thine the steely soul of ice:
Thou poisonest the fair design
Of nature, with unfair device.

Apples of ashes, golden bright;
Waters of bitterness, how sweet!
O banquet of a foul delight,
Prepared by thee, dark Paraclete!

Thou art the whisper in the gloom,
The hinting tone, the haunting laugh:
Thou art the adorner of my tomb,
The minstrel of mine epitaph.

I fight thee, in the Holy Name!
Yet, what thou dost, is what God saith:
Tempter! should I escape thy flame,
Thou wilt have helped my soul from Death:

The second Death, that never dies,
That cannot die, when time is dead:
Live Death, wherein the lost soul cries,
Eternally uncomforted.

Dark Angel, with thine aching lust!
Of two defeats, of two despairs:
Less dread, a change to drifting dust,
Than thine eternity of cares.

Do what thou wilt, thou shalt not so,
Dark Angel! triumph over me:
Lonely, unto the Lone I go;
Divine, to the Divinity.

Woh, that must be why he was called what he was, that resembles the Lion and his Dark Angels

Its when you consider what that poem is supposed to be about that things get weird.

Indeed