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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:09:25
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Morphing Obliterator
The Frigid North of Minneapolis
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So, now that we finally got a look at the Beastmaster and beasts models, people are wondering if the extreme ($$) price is worth buying them. Me, I love to convert, so I'm not that saddened by the hefty pricetag, but I haven't played any actual games with Beastmasters. Has anyone out there done so? If so, what was your experience? Are they worth their points cost? Should I bother converting some, or just pass on the unit entirely?
Any thought would be very much appreciated. Thanks Dakka!
-C6
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:12:45
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer
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There is nothing more intimidating then 25 khymerae coming out of a wwp
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1250 Eldar
1250 Dark Eldar (still building)
DE Kabal fluff
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/338476.page
Human: Why are you so cruel.
DE: Why not. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:15:56
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Morphing Obliterator
The Frigid North of Minneapolis
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Well, intimidating yes, but worth the points? I don't have codex on hand to check the cost of them, although 24 Khymerae at $15 each GW prices... that's pretty intimidating on the pocketbook! But this thread is supposed to be about if they are good on the tabletop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:19:49
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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I've tried them before. I didn't really like them too much. They soak up a lot of points, and are only really good in assault. For the same points, I could get trueborn in a raider or something that actually can threaten in both phases.
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:21:18
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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I rann a unit of 10 khymereas and 6 razorwings. it was an aboslut powerhouse but I think 2 smaler units would be better.
Unles you need ekstra blasters in scourge sI would recomend speedmasters!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:35:07
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
Inside a pretty, pretty pain cave... won't you come inside?
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I've used BM a few times and have a decent feel for them. Note, I only use Khymerae and Razorwings; haven't really found much of a reason for Clawed Fiends except as a way to absorb high S fire (which the Khymerae can do with their invulnerable save).
The variants I've run:
3 BM w/ 5 khymerae and 4 razorwing
2 BM w/ 10 khymerae
5 BM w/ 10 khymerae, 6 razorwing
5 BM w/ 5 khymerae, 8 razorwing
I generally have not given any BM any wargear, but a venom blade would be a decent addition. The larger units are alright, they can deal a lot of wounds (great for horde control), but will make themselves a big target. You will need a fair amount of Khymerae against any army with significant S6+ fire, as they will instant-kill your razorwings, who are otherwise fine at absorbing small arms fire (even after the FAQ ruling that Power From Pain does not affect them).
I haven't run much WWP lists, but they serve an obvious role there as a big assault threat. Otherwise, they are great at finishing off units tied up by wyches, or as a screen unit for foot-based troops. They are versatile, so you can tailor it to different roles.
Leadership is a weakness, as they can be pinned or screwed with by powers such as Fear the Darkness, and the lack of grenades can hurt. They can't reliably hurt high T troops, so they should generally try to dogpile on shooty units or non-moving vehicles.
Overall, I think they are a decent unit and can give you a good assault choice from your FA slot if that's what you need. I tend to advocate the mid-sized (2 or 3 BM and beasts of choice) over the large unit, but it depends on what you're using them for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 19:36:23
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Morphing Obliterator
The Frigid North of Minneapolis
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Niiai wrote:I rann a unit of 10 khymereas and 6 razorwings. it was an aboslut powerhouse but I think 2 smaler units would be better.
Unles you need ekstra blasters in scourge sI would recomend speedmasters!
I'm slightly confused by your post - are you saying that two smaller (than your 10 Khymerae/6 Razorwing) units are good, UNLESS I was also running a unit of Scourges and wanted to use the points to give them more blasters? I had read somewhere that Scourge were not worth the points at all... Automatically Appended Next Post: Skarboy wrote:I've used BM a few times and have a decent feel for them. Note, I only use Khymerae and Razorwings; haven't really found much of a reason for Clawed Fiends except as a way to absorb high S fire (which the Khymerae can do with their invulnerable save).
The variants I've run:
3 BM w/ 5 khymerae and 4 razorwing
2 BM w/ 10 khymerae
5 BM w/ 10 khymerae, 6 razorwing
5 BM w/ 5 khymerae, 8 razorwing
I generally have not given any BM any wargear, but a venom blade would be a decent addition. The larger units are alright, they can deal a lot of wounds (great for horde control), but will make themselves a big target. You will need a fair amount of Khymerae against any army with significant S6+ fire, as they will instant-kill your razorwings, who are otherwise fine at absorbing small arms fire (even after the FAQ ruling that Power From Pain does not affect them).
I haven't run much WWP lists, but they serve an obvious role there as a big assault threat. Otherwise, they are great at finishing off units tied up by wyches, or as a screen unit for foot-based troops. They are versatile, so you can tailor it to different roles.
Leadership is a weakness, as they can be pinned or screwed with by powers such as Fear the Darkness, and the lack of grenades can hurt. They can't reliably hurt high T troops, so they should generally try to dogpile on shooty units or non-moving vehicles.
Overall, I think they are a decent unit and can give you a good assault choice from your FA slot if that's what you need. I tend to advocate the mid-sized (2 or 3 BM and beasts of choice) over the large unit, but it depends on what you're using them for.
I can see the appeal of a unit of 10 Khymerae as a screening force for (potentially) more valuable units. I had planned to use Cold Ones (new Dark Elf style) as Clawed Fiends, but if they're nto really worth it, I think I'll use them as Khymerae instead. I'll have to buy a few more, but it's cheaper than saving them for Fiends if I'm not going to use that unit, and having to buy 10-odd other models to represent the Khymerae.
Already I am planning a unit of Incubi, and Wracks (and possibly Grotesques) for assaulty-ness. If so, then I'm not sure I'll neceserily *NEED* a FA slot assault unit. But it would pay to be flexible I imagine.
I've already made some heads for my Beastmasters, using skulls as masks:
I plan to make at least 2 more, using an Ork skull, and something else.
Thanks for the suggestions!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 19:44:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 20:24:00
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Chartarsix, at 1750 a group of 5 beastmasters with 10 khymeraes and 6 razorwing flocks is just to big of a unit.
2 units with 5 khymeraes and 4 razorwing flocks would be that mutch better (and slightly more expensive.)
In short I think beastmasters and scourges look very good. Why scourges instead of trueborn? Well I like them both, but in a WWB you can declear you are deepstriking the scourges and when the portal comes up you can eather move 12 out of it and shoot or dorp where ever. Nothing is safe from them, and they shoot a lott. Also a 4+ save seems quite good. Any unit thats urvives 9 shardcarbine shots and 2 blaster shots you should feel free to charge. Even tanks since you have plasma greandes (huray!)
Beast masters and scourges are very good. Witch one you chose comes down to your list and in my opinion weather you have enough blasters. And then if you need a close combat unit to chase down the rest or if you need more blasters (or if you have enough blasters) more hayvire blasters. (for stunn)
It depends a lott on your list, but they are both veru good, as are helions.
ALTHOUGH: The price they ask for the metal models are to mutch. Just use goblin spiders as khymereas and river trolls with green stuff as clawed beasts.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 20:50:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 13:36:46
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I love my beast master pack. I run 5 - bm 1 clawed, 4 razorwings and 10 kymera. Since I am horrible at rolling rending I add the clawed fiend for the S5.
They absorb tons of fire power and keep going. They can and have consistently glanced to death multiple vehicles in one charge. They can also cover half the board and provide a turn 2 threat to a large portion of your enemy.
Out of a properly deployed WWP they have a large charge radius.
They do require leadership support. I typically run grisly trophies on my raiders and keep em within 6" of my pack to help with pinning issues. If someone has fear of darkness or IG PBS I will run them out of the WWP to make sure they get a charge off before facing the psychic powers.
Their other weakness is not having grenades. Assaulting into cover against units with tons of attacks. (orc boyz, large mixed kroot pack etc...) will get you wiped.
Some folks say it is waste of 35 points to always have a WWP in your list unless your list is designed for it. I disagree and have won games by having the WWP around despite only using it in half of my games.
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"As a rule of thumb, If you find yourself saying "Well it doesn't say I can't do this in the rules!" you are probably bending the rules at best and at worst cheating completely"
Jervis Johnson (forward to Warhammer Ancient Battles) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 14:13:26
Subject: Re:Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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3 BM w/ 5 khymerae and 4 razorwing
I think that's a solid unit right there. What makes them decent compared to other units? Wound allocation tricks of course! S6+ shots? Throw them on the Khymerae for the 4+ invul, and only 1 wound lost worst case. Small arms (bolters, lasguns, heavy bolters) throw them on the razor wing flocks to get absorbed without losing much combat strength.
They can't ID the swarms, and they can't torrent the 4+ invul, it makes for a very resilient unit to shooting and combat damage.
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Looking for Durham Region gamers in Ontario Canada, send me a PM!
See my gallery for Chapterhouse's Tervigon, fully painted.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 14:33:40
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Another cool unit would be 3 beatsmasters with 3 clawfiends. As soon as you hit melle the BM would die but you would moastl likley do a sweeping advance. And you are majoraty T5!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 14:41:21
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I run 2 full units of the 21 model variant @ 1850. For razorwings I use the warmaster undead vultures and for khymera I use tyranids with green stuff for tentacles. Even if they manage to concentrate enough firepower combined with a PBS to turn them around, there is a second one on the table. Just make sure the rest of your list is designed to deal with AV12+ and cover your WWP carrier with Harlequins to ensure they can come out from 21" and break the enemy's front line.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 15:58:33
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
Grand Rapids Metro
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They were a lot better before GW purposefully clarified that they don't get power from pain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 16:13:35
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The beastmasters do, the beats do not. GW still needs to clarify how fearless works, however.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 16:55:50
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I've played against the 'big unit'. It was quite scary for my nids coming out of the webway portal.
It charged a unit of 15 genestealers and just ate their lunch... It was quite impressive. The genestealers weren't able to insta-kill anything obviously, so many of the wounds they caused at initiative 6 did not result in enemy models being removed.
A big unit of beastmasters certainly would stomp right over an assault terminator unit as well. In fact, a full strength beastmaster unit doesn't really get held up by anything but a true death star. Of course keeping them 'full strength' is the trick.
When you don't have control over when and where you are going to fight, thats when you get into trouble, I charged a second unit with a hive tyrant + one tyrant guard later in the game. The unit was stretched a little wide, and a little beat up from shooting, they lost combat, failed morale and were swept. So, I can definitely see how starting with smaller units first, and only expanding them to a full 5 beastmasters after your fast attack slots are filled up would be wise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 20:48:31
Subject: Re:Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Fixture of Dakka
Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents
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Greetings.
I use a single beast unit in my army - 4x beastmasters, 10x khymerae (or nine depending on 1850 or 2000), and 4 razorwing flocks. I use Baron Sathonyx as an HQ, and I attach him to this unit. Their biggest weakness is T3 and getting shot at with STR6+ weaponry, which has the ability to insta-kill anything.
While I primarily take the Baron for his ability to grant me +1 to go first, he adds +1 to the beasts cover save (meaning that my beasts pretty much always have a 3+ cover save), as well as giving them offensive and defensive grenades - which is extremely helpful - most things that need to get assaulted are either intentionally in cover, or in a vehicle crater. The obvious downside here is that the Baron doesn't charge like cavalry - sometimes I find myself needing to remove the Baron from the unit to make sure I get the charge, but most often he stays in, and at the back of the unit so that he doesn't get drawn into close combat.
Their utility depends on the kind of army you play. If you are playing a mechanized assault list (wyches, incubi, wracks, etc) they aren't a good fit - you already have plenty of assault, and it moves faster - better to tack on more mechanized assault. If you're playing a WWP army, they're a great fit, as well as if you're playing a static or mechanized shooting army - they fill a role in tarpitting units - Orks are a great example. While all your shooting is focused on immediate threats to your vehicles (kans, Lootas, deffkoptas, battlewagons), mobs of boyz can generally advance across the board unthreatened until the bigger threats are neutralized - at which point you'd need to turn your firepower on them, hoping that you've finished the threats to your vehicles. I've had my single unit of beasts (with the Baron attached) take down three units of Ork boyz in one game throughout successive turns. They assaulted the first unit while at full strength and killed it over two player turns; assaulted a second mob that couldn't make it over in time to support and wiped it, then accepted a charge from a third unit (glorying in having defensive grenades) and tied them up until the end of the game, when they finally won combat.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 21:02:14
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I've played against the full unit of Razorwings, and it was nasty as heck. That's a stupid number of rending attacks at high Init. For just a little over 200pts, you get a unit which can take on the vast majority of units in HtH, has an absolute TON of wounds against anything S5 or lower, gets enhanced cover saves to help protect it against S6+ shooting, and doesn't need a transport vehicle, because it moves fast enough on its own.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/17 21:04:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 21:19:37
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Dakka Veteran
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I have liked two units of 3 Beast Masters with 5 Kymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks in 1850-2000 point shooty mech lists they are quite mean in assault and fast enough on their own and do not have the oops my raider got shot down. They help deal with hordes without having to run Razorwings. It is a pity they do not get power from pain. Low leadership is a problem but Grisly trophies helps with this.
Large units of beasts might make good deathstars at large points levels like ardboys but I have not actually tried them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/17 21:36:52
Subject: Re:Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Charing Cold One Knight
Lafayette, IN
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I don't really get where people think that beast packs are "deathstars". They are less than 300 points for a full unit. Death stars tend to be in the range of at least landraider+termies+ character... as in 500+ points. These guys are pointed like tactical marines w/transport.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/18 22:49:20
Subject: Re:Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Fixture of Dakka
Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents
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Indeed - beast units are a fantastic tie-up unit, and have the ability to win combat, but they will never be a deathstar unit; while you could pack agonizers or power weapons onto the STR3 beastmasters, either would be a waste of points and overcomplicating the value of the beasts as a fantastic tie-up unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/18 23:34:27
Subject: Has anyone actually been using DE Beastmasters?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Well I'll be playing with 2 units of the 21 model variant in a tourney tomorrow, so I'll let you know how it goes. I have complete faith in them, since they are IMHO the solution to AV12 spam, since most of those vehicles have AV10 rear armor.
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