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I was playin my friend at my local GW the other day had my warboss shoot at a rhino 2 inches away from him. How on earth do you miss something right infront of you? If i stand two feet away from a car i shoot a gun at it how the **** would you miss? even if i dont aim right how do i miss a car 2 feet away

It really doesnt matter in 40k how close you are! Those are the rules. Try to live with that.

Admittedly, there probably should be a BS benefit depending on range.. would definitely make things more interesting.

Then again Ork Warbosses just generally need a higher BS anyway..

Although such occurences are supposed to be explained by other random things.. for example maybe his gun jammed, or the shots hit but didn't do any damage etc.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Admittedly, there probably should be a BS benefit depending on range.. would definitely make things more interesting.

Then again Ork Warbosses just generally need a higher BS anyway..

Although such occurences are supposed to be explained by other random things.. for example maybe his gun jammed, or the shots hit but didn't do any damage etc.

That and It makes the game a bit faster and simpler... but i agree, I would think the BS increasing the closer you got would be nice...

There are no range modifiers in 40K.

To rationalise this, assume that you are only allowed to shoot when you are within the effective range of the weapon and your skill level, so you can't gain or lose by moving closer to or farther away from the target.

40K is a game of blunt rules. There are many games which include modifiers for range, target size, cover and so on -- but 40K is not one of them.

Indeed, 40K used to include a whole range of modifiers for shooting similar to those seen in Fantasy. However, they were dropped for 3rd Edition as part of the simplification of the game. The modifiers for hard/soft cover became cover saves and those concerning the size of the target disappeared altogether. So yes, 1/3 of all Space Marines will indeed miss the side of a barn from 2 feet away.

The Ork's BS of 2 is more reflective of the fact that half the time they just shoot wildly in the air because it's fun. Assume on the occasion you describe that your Warboss chose to let off some steam rather than shoot at the Rhino.

All that and, just to be fair, BS penalties for looooong range shooting.
I would love all those LF and parking lots missing just because of the distance penalty, really.

It's especially annoying in Apoc..... blast weapons almost always hit Titans & Gargants, because theire f*cking huge. But a direct shot lascannon (or any other direct-shot weapon) with a completely straight line of fire may miss..*sigh*


Target size and range should influence BS... maybe not infantry models, but Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles, and Superheavy Vehicles

It is already hard enought to get a Melta in close range, and then miss a point blanc?

You also have to understand that the Rhino is not just sitting infront of him. The actions of both players are ~supposed~ to be happening at about the same time...

So therefore you could easily imagine the Rhino driving towards the Orks, and their shotty firing results in no hits.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Admittedly, there probably should be a BS benefit depending on range

They have one, it's called Rapid Fire.

Melissia wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:Admittedly, there probably should be a BS benefit depending on range

They have one, it's called Rapid Fire.

That with how many shots you have

It comes to the same thing in the end, twice as many hits.

Yeah, but don't think of it like "the 'hit' roll only represents my chance of hitting" and "the 'wound' roll only represents my chance of wounding them" and "their 'cover save' represents the chance of a nearby tree stopping the shot".
It's not that simple.

Try imagining that the hit roll represents problems on your end: missing, gun jam, reload, shooting a mistaken target.

Wounding represents luck on their end, them dodging the bullet, going to ground, catching it on a strong part of their armour.

A cover save just represents how difficult it is to hit enemies in cover, whether it be due to smoke, hard to pick out targets, whatever.


As Melissa said, rapid fire (is in a way) exactly what you're asking far. It doesn't really mean your guns suddenly shoot twice as fast. No gun suddenly shoots twice as many bullets because you're closer to your target. What it means is at short range, there's basically double the chance of your bullets hitting. This is represented by you rolling twice as many dice, because it's simpler than a BS modifier.

I would agree with the statement that BS isn't simply a representation of shooting skill. It also can be thought of as representing the firer's knowledge of his weapon, the individual's weapon build quality, and, especially with orks, tendency to shoot at the wrong target (or at nothing).

It would really be nice to have range modifiers for added realism, but as others have said, the 40k rules have been designed with realism as a secondary concern. That would just be another thing to have to think about when firing. As if there isn't enough already.

If realism is the secondary concer what is their primary concern?

Fun?

Balance?

Remember, the shot "missing" could also represent not hitting anything vital, or in a place where it could penetrate the armor and do significant damage (glance or pen).

The game of 40k makes a lot of assumptions. One of the assumptions is that the models represent live creatures. These creatures are moving, running, hiding, barking orders and picking there noises. So a model that is "standing in front of a car" on the board is not really just standing in front of the car. Anything and everything that could go right or wrong will happen. This is represented by the Dice Roles.

Maybe he forgot to unstrap his holster and could not get his gun out. Maybe he had a miss fire. Maybe he hit the vehicle but it did nothing.

This is what makes 40k such a wonderful game.

Melissia wrote:Balance?

Pretty sure that one isn't anywhere near the top of their list.

Something being closer doesn't always make it easier to hit, keep in mind this is a living moving thing that is trying desperately not to get hit that's being shot at at. The degree of motion necessary to track (IE keep the gun pointed at it) a moving target is much larger when its nearby. I could see a bonus for shooting at a nearby stationary vehicle, but that's about it.

Its simple, even if the bullets hit, it doesnt mean that they hit somewhere where it counts, and if youre wondering about realism, then remember, closer targets move faster in relation to you and your barrel, so you need to aim faster to hit something that is moving around close to you. Shooting at a huge tank IS NOT easier than shooting smaller targets, because you still need to hit the vulnerable spots, and those vulnerable spot shots are no easier to make than any old headshot.

2nd ed had range modifiers for alot of weapons, tbh its a shame they've removed them, at close range you would hit a tank regardless of how fast you or it were moving in relation to each other, i mean ITS A TANK!

its all done for simplicity and balance, if you want range modifiers play Necromunda

Randomonioum wrote:Fun?

Yep i guess that's there first concern

It's the same issue as Marbo throwing a Demo charge and it scatters back into him. The winds in the universe of Warhammer be strooooong.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It's the same issue as Marbo throwing a Demo charge and it scatters back into him. The winds in the universe of Warhammer be strooooong.

i guess he'd just wait for the wind to change

Well, I would venture to say that the current ruleset was designed to make it more streamlined and simple, and fun comes from that. A system where you don't have quite as many situation-specific modifiers, because it slows the game down. Naturally a game that moves more quickly and smoothly, one where you can spend more time thinking tactics than rolling dice and calculating modifiers, is a game that is more fun.

Agreed. a 1000 point game already takes about an hour or so to finish (more if playing Annhilation, which we do alot). More realistic rules would lengthen that time considerably, especially with people cross-checking their rulebooks every little inch.

The point about the To Hit/To Wound/To Save sequence is that it allows GW to adjust probabilities of knocking units out of the game over a fairly wide range without resorting to the use of percentage dice and lookup tables.

It is also very simple.

The best way to look at this is from the end result. The target was either taken out of the game, or not. How or why doesn't matter.

My house rules=<4" away, auto hit.
for meltas, <2" away.

TNM wrote:If realism is the secondary concer what is their primary concern?

Selling Space Marines.

DoW