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Okay.. I don't really know how to describe this, so here goes.



There's a unit of trolls marching across the board. There's 20 of the bastards, and they are all in 1 single rank.



Now, the trolls at their far right end have the ability to flank charge an enemy unit.


The trolls at the far left are all about 2 to 3 feet away, once you count the distance they have to wheel.

What happens? Can the charge be declared if the far members of the trolls cannot wheel that far?

Then, to make it harder still, the super-wheel of troll death would run into several enemy units before completing the wheel to the charged enemy. Now what? I'll try and draw a picture.


https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B4nekeuI2D_JMzc2OTgxZDQtZmIyMS00MTI4LWI4ZmQtNGNjZTk0ZmM3ZmVm&hl=en


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Funny idea. Check page 22 of the Big Red Book.

"If no amount of finagling [great word] can allow the unit to avoid the obstacle, the charge fails."

"Under no circumstances can a unit use its charge move to move into contact with an enemy it has not declared a charge against."

Well firstly - the wheel during charging costs NO MOVEMENT whatsoever. Check out the wheeling rules

Secondly - you cannot charge the flank of the unit indicated, however you could declare a charge against other units (if in range, etc) that are in the way.

Of course the trolls on the far flank begin to elongate and become much heavier as their speed approaches the speed of light, and indeed exceed it as they instantaneously travel through the arc described. Fortunately this pleases the Chaos gods, and thus is abstracted away.

Squash and Nos are right (with Wehrkind getting internet points for creativity ). Because you cannot "close the door", even if the rightmost troll can make contact with the enemy unit, it is an impossible charge and would fail.

That said, if you change the scenario and make what is currently the flank of the intended charge unit their front, then they can be charged. The reason being, on the same page Squash is quoting (should be 22) it states that if the charging unit cannot "close the door" the defending unit must do so.

I can post the exact wording later. If you're hitting them in the flank, they can't close the door either, and so the charge would fail. But if that were their front, as long as the rightmost troll can connect, the enemy unit would swing the door shut themselves to complete the charge.

The facing doesn't matter in the picture shown; the trolls can't connect at all with the target, so the charge fails.

The wheel is free, but no amount of wheeling will allow the right side of the troll unit to hit target without running into one of those two other units first.

-Matt

Pg. 22, the enemy unit, as goofy as it is, closes the door to you, there is no failed charge

PS - Ive used the troll swing tactic in teams games, great screen tactic and LOS denial, its cheese, but hey, it was a tourney, the wood elves player did think it was some BS


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let me add that you must be abble to at least barely touch the unit on the charge for that to work

also let me add that yes i realize that a unit closing its flank to a charging unit is also F'ing slowed, but lets be honest, this is a GW ruleset were talking about, nothing new here lol

In said picture, I believe you're right HawaiiMatt. However, since that's established above, I'd like to discuss what would happen if the right tip of the unit could touch the enemy unit.

MN, that's an interesting idea... but I don't see anywhere in the rules that would allow the enemy unit to "close the door" with their flank. To work, I think it would have to be the unit's front. Otherwise, rules are being invented to solve the problem (a backwards wheel, basically, which never happens in the game) which isn't covered by that brief sentence, and it would be a failed charge.

So imho, if the right edge could touch and that was the enemy unit's front, it would work as the enemy would be forced to close the door. If it was it's flank, it's a failed charge as it is impossible for either unit to close the door.

Thoughts/confirmation?

"close the door" doesnt have a frontage requirement - either side can close the door.

For example if you cannot move up when attacking a unit to the rear, they back up to you.

my buddy put it to me best, would you rather have an enemy run rapid through your ranks, or put someone there to take the brunt of it. again as silly as it sounds, it does say the enemy closes the door if the the attacker cant, and if for some reason the defender cant either (ie the door closes on an obstacle) then its considered a failed charge. time for sleep

nosferatu1001 wrote:"close the door" doesnt have a frontage requirement - either side can close the door.

For example if you cannot move up when attacking a unit to the rear, they back up to you.

Is the only quote for this page 22? I'm totally fine with this being the case (makes things simpler, and tending to take large units, probably will help me) but I would like to be able to reference the correct section.

It just seems to me that it's stretching the mechanics of the game a bit if there's no example of this, or wording spelling this out, but if there is one or you can point to it in some other way, I'd be very happy for this to be the case.

i wouldn't say that this is an attempt to stretch the game mechanics, as it does say that sometimes the enemy needs to close the door to you, and it doesnt provide a restriction on facing. Also at looking for the rules of closing the door it just states the models are going to be at odd angles after a charge and will move in to fight each other, filling the gap. I think we also have to realize that, yes the models do "face" a certain direction but if charged from the rear the do "turn" to fight the persons that is an immediate threat to them.

But lets be honest, this is an unusual situation that comes up once in a while. and no matter who you play, your opponent will surely call you out on it and say, " that you gamey mofo". That is when you reply "Pg 22, look at the pretty pictures"

Magus Nebula wrote:Pg. 22, the enemy unit, as goofy as it is, closes the door to you, there is no failed charge

PS - Ive used the troll swing tactic in teams games, great screen tactic and LOS denial, its cheese, but hey, it was a tourney, the wood elves player did think it was some BS


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let me add that you must be abble to at least barely touch the unit on the charge for that to work

also let me add that yes i realize that a unit closing its flank to a charging unit is also F'ing slowed, but lets be honest, this is a GW ruleset were talking about, nothing new here lol

Closing the door is a wheel to align. You don't get to the "closing the door" step, until the charging unit touches the charged unit.
In the pic, those trolls can't make the initial contact, and as such, can't get to the closing the door step.

-Matt

Its too close to tell on the pic - its possible they could make at least a corner contact, which is all thats needed

If they cant contact at all - charge failed
If they contact at all - charge completed, unless there is no possible way to close the door

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Magus Nebula wrote:Pg. 22, the enemy unit, as goofy as it is, closes the door to you, there is no failed charge

PS - Ive used the troll swing tactic in teams games, great screen tactic and LOS denial, its cheese, but hey, it was a tourney, the wood elves player did think it was some BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
let me add that you must be abble to at least barely touch the unit on the charge for that to work

also let me add that yes i realize that a unit closing its flank to a charging unit is also F'ing slowed, but lets be honest, this is a GW ruleset were talking about, nothing new here lol

Closing the door is a wheel to align. You don't get to the "closing the door" step, until the charging unit touches the charged unit.
In the pic, those trolls can't make the initial contact, and as such, can't get to the closing the door step.

-Matt

totaly agreed i dont think that the trolls in the pic would be able to make it. theres really no way for them to wheel enough to charge the right unit, i think T.Frog just quickly whipped up an illustration to show his point. I was just commenting that if they could the other unit would close the door.

here is a butchered new pic for added situations.

However, there is nothing concrete- i.e., no pictures, examples, or wording in the book- that makes an exception to the usual wheel rules for "closing the door" with the defending unit, right?

I wish this had been FAQ'ed, I do see this as being a real possibility and would like to make sure I get it right. Again, I'm totally onboard with this being the way it works, but it almost seems that a rule is being invented to do so. In what other situation can you wheel in anything but a forward direction?

Just to be clear, Magus, that's the flank that of the enemy unit that closed the door in that pic, right? (And HawaiiMatt, we're all onboard with the trolls not being able to contact in the original pic, now we're exploring what happens if they can, as in Magus' edited one).

I don't know, I think that pic is an impossible charge. Defender closing the door with their flank? I just haven't seen any hard justification that this is really allowed by the brief "impossible charge" section on page 22, which shows an enemy unit closing the door with its' front facing only.

It might be worth looking at where else "closing the door" is mentioned, and if it is clearly defined as only being a normal wheel action from the front arc of a unit or not.

iagree, this is a really grey area, as much as i love this book and 8E, they [Games Workshop] really go out of thier way to hide rules in the books.

Nice re-picturing, Magus. Grudgingly, I agree: if the charging unit can make contact, then they wheel up (I'd say within 1" of the intervening units, to keep things clean) and the chargee closes the door to them. When thinking through this I keep treating the non-charged units as impassable terrain, and that just recalls the picture on page 22 where the wolf riders make contact, are blocked by impassable rocks and then have the dwarfs close the door to them.

Note: I would not declare the charge in the first place, as it enters into a bit of a zone of indistinction. Instead, I would just charge the central unit (first to make contact), barring being blocked by the 3rd unit in question.

(Something like this happened in an RTT on Sunday, with my ratling guns in the way of charges he wanted to make on my clanrats. Rather than figure out all this strange wheeling and door closing, he opted to just charge the ratters, have them flee and then redirect into the clanrats once the guns were cleared from his charge routes. A good call, to keep it all above the boards.)

- Salvage

20 trolls in a single line are asking to get beat in combat and die with combat res.

Yes, but that's not the issue, as this could easily come up with a horde formation of trolls (only 6-wide) if there are two units positioned close together.

lixulana wrote:20 trolls in a single line are asking to get beat in combat and die with combat res.

not true, did this exact same thing with 19 chaos trolls in the "defend the valley" scenario during a teams tourney. I prevented anyone from marching past me without charging. I dont know about regular trolls, but chaos trolls are a tad bit gross. i had a HE team m8 that loved my giant troll screen, (also being able to roll on the EOG table almost every player turn is awesome. As far as commbat res went i just had a char in there that was stubborn till i got a on the EoG table.

I belive it works just like Magus's picture.


the "closing the Door" section says that IF the charging unit is unable to close the door for any reason(Terrain, enemy units...) then the charged unit must close the door.


this does require the Trolls to have actually made contact with the unit they charged. if they couldn't make contact before bumping another unit the charge fails instead.


Page 22 perfectly illustrates this. just imagine the wolf riders are the Trolls, Dwarves are the charged unit, and the rock is another enemy unit.