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They just seem way too expensive for what they do. Specifically I'm looking at zombie dragons and abyssal terrors. Even more generally though, they just don't seem worth it.

Theyre worth it for the fun
Still only having that one monster in your entire army could turn it into a fire magnet.

lol... Could? The only army that wont shoot at a target like that are the Vampire Counts.

Depending on what ones you use, they make great comets.

Things like wyverns really arent that good due to low attacks, they do however have scaly skin saves.
Something manticores lack.


From the 2 you quoted im guessing your a VC player?
If so, throw a vamp on either of them, kit him out and use it for hunting down small elite units, small cav units, warmachines etc.

Also, if theres nothing really worth hitting, use it asa flank charge unit supported by a front charge unit.
The extra impact from that alone will win you the combat.


The main points that help are:

1: Wings - It needs wings to make it very effective, failing that, good movement.

2: Save - Needs a save of some form, things that lack the save will die too quickly.

3: Control - Manticores and a few others suffer frmo forms of frenzy, meaning they wont be going where they need to.

4: Attacks - unless it has atleast 4 attacks, ignore it.
Unless its attacks are high strength, and then you just target armoured units.

5: Decent character - No point throwing a caster on a dragon.
You wont be making the best use of it.
Make sure they are tooled up to either hit hard, or with alot of attacks.




with that in mind, you also need to keep them in combat, or away from fire, as they tend to become a magnet.


While not the most amazing example, heres what i used to take with lizardmen (unit killer)
Granted it has no wings, but you cant get anything winged for an old blood :(


Oldblood: light armour, scimitar, maiming shield - 235
Carnosaur - 210

445 points.

Old blood gets 8 S5 attacks each turn.
Carnosaur gets 4 each turn + its frenzy.

This isnt a bad unit hunter, but if your going for bigger targets, give the old blood a piranha blade instead.
That doubles unsaved wounds.
the carnosaur inflicts D3 wounds against an unsaved wound against a large target.

So either way, it can be tooled up well enough to hunt most things.




thats just the general idea of it though.
When used right, they do great and help remove threats before they are a problem.
Just make sure you either give them some magic defence or take wizards with him.
Magic is the quickest way he can die, unless you get into combat quickly.

Note that any list planning to use monsters should have ways of neutralising/disabling warmachines turn two at the latest.

I would suggest that Frenzy isn't so bad as you are going to have a Ld 8-9 character sitting on the beast keeping it calm. Plus, since you want it in combat, it isn't too terrible to be forced to charge if you plan your 20" movement correctly. It does mean that you have to plan your movement more carefully than you might otherwise, though.

Also, remember that breath weapons can be used in melee to do a mess of hits, which can help nuke moderately sized units, so anything with a breath weapon is extra fun.

As to reducing damage from war machines, an Ironcurse Amulet gives the unit a ward save vs them, so that should help.

Yea 6+ is great...
Whatever you can do to reduce the amount of shots coming at you is the best solution IMO.

*L* I am not saying it is the best thing since sliced bread, or even bread knives. Just that it helps.

Besides, the list of what you can do to reduce shots before your flying monster can get into combat is fairly short. Other monsters are an option, through target saturation. Deployment to the flank behind cover helps, but you should probably be doing that anyway since charge the front of an enemy unit isn't a great idea. Using other units to obscure helps a bit, if you have them.

Really though, your flying angry mount should get into combat at the same time or before any other units manage to tie up warmachines etc, so that doesn't help much. You can maybe burn down machines with magic and other shooting, but that doesn't seem likely since they are notoriously strong vs that (using the machines high T for shooting etc.)

Am I missing anything?

Jack - it's against any target now (D3 wounds), a change from the 6th ed book

Probably not the most worthwhile things from a purely competitive standpoint, but I'll be darned if my manticore won't be on the table nearly every chance I get. For Dark Elves it's not quite so bad since they can bring a good number of monsters or flying units to the table to give those War Machines a fit, but it will be pretty rough on your Vampiric Lord to be the only thing on a big base unless you bring a couple Varguls (or however they're spelled).

Vargulf, I think it's called that because of its wolf-like features. Warguls are those white flying beastial vampires that poop in your hair and steal your chips.

I would agree with Wehrkind and Kirbinator about using target saturation and hitting those warmachines quickly.

My dark elf list has a dragon, manticore, and 2 hydras to go along with dark riders (vanguard movement), shades (scout ability), harpies (fly), and a sorceress (flying dark pegasus). While my other units don't have those special rules, the chariot is still very maneuverable and my crossbowmen have the "2 foot double-tap rule" My only unit that is lagging behind are my corsairs, but someone had to sail the ship.

Heheh... "Ok guys, we are done parking the ship! What's going on with the... oh... you are done? Well, crap."

If you've got an army with mediocre leadership, a large flying mount for a General can be pretty handy in a high point game. I've found that the extra 6" of leadership radius, and the speed to get it somewhere can be very useful in keeping your army going at a critical area of the battlefield. I've said this before about the unpopular Wyvern. It's tough enough to take some hits (T5, 5 Wounds, 4+ save), but it's cheap enough that it can be held back for a few turns before being committed.

Wehrkind wrote:I would suggest that Frenzy isn't so bad as you are going to have a Ld 8-9 character sitting on the beast keeping it calm. Plus, since you want it in combat, it isn't too terrible to be forced to charge if you plan your 20" movement correctly.

Well, you do have to overrun with no possibility to restrain after winning a combat, so putting 5 Militia right in front of it but angled away could be a huge problem...

5 millitia, 10 skinks a bunch of warhounds, good times ensue

On the other hand though, you can fly-charge over them at another unit to ignore them if you make your Ld check, so it isn't a huge problem. You also should probably have your own skirmisher removal if you are rocking lots of Frenzy stuff, especially in WoC with all the Khorne lumberjacks

Smart players can position their screeners so that even a single model cannot charge past them

HoverBoy wrote:Smart players can position their screeners so that even a single model cannot charge past them

Oh okay, so what about against Lizardmen players?

I keeeed, I keeeed!

LOL.
Touche mister Squash.

I think the cheaper monsters are worth it as mobile CR support for larger elements in the army. Sort of as troubleshooters to counter the enemy where you are too weak.

That is a good point, but requires your opponent to commit a fair amount of thought to covering every unit in a 10+3d6 (drop the highest) inch range from your mount, while thinking of where he will be with a 20" fly move otherwise. Depending on the player, that might well be worth it's weight in points, people having limited attention.

I will note, however, that I don't run any monstrous mounts myself

MY high elf dragon mage went from being a very viable tool to being pretty lame but that was also with changes to fire lore, the % vs slots ect.

I would love to give it a shot, if playing in a large game 3K+ but even then it would be risky.

Actually. Taking a high elf list with two dragons, but holding dragons off the table and taking a horde of RBT and Great Eagles to clear out warmachines asap. before the dragons enter untouched could be interesting.

They need to bring back flying high otherwise it just isnt viable with the parking lots of artillery we see now.

I do think the game is bland without them, so my armies have room to include a terror causing flyer if I can, though it might not make the regular play list. This measna a Bret Hippogriff and a High Elf Dragon, both of which i love, and both I am so reluctant to put on the tabletop. My next army is Dark Elves so I am spoilt for choice there.