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Okay this may be a strange request for some of you, but hear me out. I am wanting to make some Death Company units for my new Blood Angels army. I am a little strange when it comes to this hobby though. I usually like the look of a model more than its actual use in the game. I collect warhammer miniatures and about 75% of the hobby for me is assembling, painting, and converting.

With that said, I am wanting to do my Death Company minis with Jump Packs. I also like Lemartes and I will probably have him with my Death Company marines. I know he is seen as a liability sometimes because a unit with rage really should have access to rhinos, etc and Lemartes prevents them from doing that. Without him, I could simply run the DC without the packs and have them get in a rhino if needed.

So this means I will more than likely build all of my Death Company with Jump Packs (Because I like how they look...sorry) and if they are in a mech list I will probably put them in a Stormraven.

My main question is, with these limitations what would be the best load out for a group of 7-10 Death Company marines?

Bolt Pistols & CCW with a PF, PW and a Infernus Pistol?

This is where my knowledge falls. I like the modeling aspect too much and I want to do a few things with them, but I don't want to model them useless. I have no clue if Bolters would be good with jump packs. See my point?

So any help here would be greatly appreciated.

At least one of them should have a hammer or a powerfist. That person should have a bolter, not a pistol.

If you wanne fly them in jump packs do not put them in a storm raven because it will costs a lott of points for a late game trumf card. However do get the death company dreadnought and put that one on the storm raven. That way it can come out 6", reploy 2", have a 2" base, Run 6" and charge 6" giving the DCD 22 range from your side of the board where it is NOT good to be. The Stormr aven should have lascannon/rocket launcher and melta. Perhaps bolters.

The idea is that it comes out , shoots 1 lascannon/rocket launcher + 4 bloodstrike missile at one target (killing it) and the muli melta with the power form the machine spirit on another target. Also if you have rocket launcher you can late game use frag and bolters as defensive weaponds vs units, if need be, but moastly you use it as a gunn ship.

But what about the death company? It depends on the sice, but you need as I sead a powerfist and hammer in case you meet a MC. But the trick is that you REALLY need to have rhino/predators around them to box them in so they do not get kitet. Remember they can't use transports since they have the packs on them. In short, you need to build a big amount of the list around the deathcompany.

Ill chime in with what niiai said on this one.
You need a fist or hammer in the unit.
Not soo much for MC's, but for walkers and other armour.

Last thing you want is rage causing them to assault something they cant kill.




I'd ignore packs simply because of cost and transport.
The cost on its own is very bad, bad enough that you could kit out an entire unit with random weapons and still get them cheaper.
Also, packs limit them to a raven, which while they arent too bad, they eat more points.

I usually run 9 DC with hammer and 2 infernus pistols (hand flamers instead against horde)
I throw them in a redeemer with either a basic fist chappy or rec. and they do great.

Also, in a redeemer you have a solid shell for them and an assault ramp.
So surviving is easy, as is getting into combat.

As for ranged weapons, keep pistols on them.
You dont want a bolter since a: it stops you assaulting and b: loses you an attack from a basic DC marine.





Best bet is to tinker with layouts though.
My 1st unit was 12 of them and they were pretty points heavy lol (hammer, 2 fists, 2 power weps, 2 infernus, 2 hand flamer)
I learned the hard way that you need to keep them basic, but with enough gear to do what they need.

I would like to point out that since they are relentles you can still charge after having shot the bolter, trading 1 str 5 attack on the charge (and each CC round) for another S4 AP5 attack in the shooting phase.

If all the bolters you can move 12" and shoot 24" (neat), Also the unit with the powerfist and hammer do not get an exkstra attack from the pistol so he needs the gun.

I run a unit of 5 with a Hand Flamer, 2 Power Weapons and a Power Fist. Ususally performs pretty well, evenmoreso if I can space the points for Jump Packs.
You also shouldn't pass the idea of the very basic DC Marine taken en-mass. Take a basic squad of 5 with Boltguns: For +10pts more than a Tac Squad you have a unit which has better stats and special rules. If you want to keep it cheap try 5 with a Power Weapon or two.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Ill I usually run 9 DC with hammer and 2 infernus pistols (hand flamers instead against horde)

I should point out that you can only take one upgraded pistol per 5 DC Marines in the squad, meaning that you need 10 to get those 2 Infernus Pistols, not 9.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:
Last thing you want is rage causing them to assault something they cant kill.

Read the rulebook. You don't need to charge anything if you don't want to, and if you do decide to charge, you can charge any unit you want, not just the closest one.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:As for ranged weapons, keep pistols on them.
You dont want a bolter since a: it stops you assaulting and b: loses you an attack from a basic DC marine.

A - false, they have relentless.

B - on a power-fist or thunder hammer marine, though, it doesn't. Which is where you want to put the bolters.

If you want to learn the tricks with rage I would advice to tead this thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=217017&hl=rage

It really helps understanding why rage is not so bad that people think, although it does take some thinking.

Thanks for the tips everyone. This should help a great deal.

I seem to get a feeling that packs are not worth it. Would it be okay to model them with the packs and let my opponents know that they are not equipped with them during the game? I really like how the packs look.

What are your thoughts on the Infernus Pistol? Is it worth taking when available?

Also thanks for the info on the PF and a couple of PW in each unit. I am still rather new to marines. I am used to Boneswords and Tervitits.

Niiai wrote:If you want to learn the tricks with rage I would advice to tead this thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=217017&hl=rage

It really helps understanding why rage is not so bad that people think, although it does take some thinking.

Man that was quite a read. I was a little tired of it after page 3. It looks like the rage rule can be interpreted by RAW a little differently than what people think.

I have not used a DC yet, but I may in the future if I put together a 3 Stormraven list. I'm approaching this from a pure effectiveness standpoint, by the way.

Given the wargear options available to the DC marine, it should be obvious that the DC behaves similarly to an Assault Squad on the table. So, let's compare them to Assault Marines to see how best to use them. The logic is that any army that uses a DC should be trying to use their particular advantages or there's not much sense in using them.

Death Company marines have the following advantages:

1. They get an extra attack
2. They automatically have FNP and FC
3. They are Fearless
4. A Chaplian improves them more than usual
5. They can take a lot of special CC weapons and pistols
6. They unlock the ability to take DC Dreadnoughts
7. They are Relentless

A DC also has the following disadvantages:

1. They are hard to control on the battlefield
2. Not a scoring unit
3. They cost somewhat more than an Assault Marine w/o a JP, and a lot more if they take a JP
4. They are Fearless
4. Can't take a meltagun, flamer or plasmagun

Now, note that some of the DCs advantages aren't really that great. Most BA armies will use Priests to give everything FNP and FC, and adding lots of special weapons really ups the expense. So, I think if you want to use a DC, you should do at least most of the following:

1. Keep them cheap. Thus, no JPs, and keep the special weapons to a minimum.
2. Take DC dreds. You want to give them Blood Talons, and probably stick them in a Stormraven
3. Get some sort of Chaplain in with them
4. Keep most models with Bolt Pistols, not Bolters. Bolters for anyone with a PF or hammer. You want to leverage that Chaplain, plus CC wounds are better due to combat resolution.

So, if I use a DC, I will probably take 5, with 1 PF and either a Chaplain or Reclusiarch, and stick them in a Stormraven with a DC dred with Blood Talons. For maximum power, I will probably have to use at least 1 more Stormraven, as otherwise there's no way they make it across the board.

I could see this working in a tournament setting, since the DC can kill stuff that other squads have trouble with, like a mob of 30 Boyz. I do think that the main draw is actually the DC dred, since that extra attack plus Fleet is pretty big with Blood Talons. Actually, in a campaign setting where you can get upgrades to stuff, the DC dred could be ridiculous if you could get it preferred enemy. Against most stuff it would average close to 20 PW wounds on the charge with talons.

In shor compare death company units with these units:

Khorne Berzerkers and Plaguemarines? Notice anything? Oh yeah, they are better then both and they cost less than any of them.

Good breakdown, Mr. Economics.

Another factor in support of your point 1 is that the DC deal out a high number of wounds; you don't want too many power weapons or power fists because of your opponent's ability to stack wounds on models with different profiles or weapons in a complex unit. You necessarily run into the issue of diminishing returns. You're best off with 1 (MAYBE 2) power weapons, and 1 or 2 fists or hammers batting cleanup after all the I5 attacks.

Lots of good advice in this thread, actually.

Although I do want to take a moment for a related digression to disagree with some earlier advice about the Stormraven:

The LAST thing you generally (against any opponent with even mediocre shooting) want to do is wait a round to shoot your guns.

The first and foremost priority of a SR needs to be delivering its contents. While units are still embarked it is inevitably the highest-value (in terms of ease of killing combined with benefit of killing) target on the table.

The SR should almost always be jetting 24" on turn 1. If you do not have first turn, it should almost certainly be in Reserve, so your opponent cannot shoot it while it is in your deployment zone. When it shows up, you jet it 24" from the table edge. This way your opponent can ONLY ever shoot at it when it has a 4+ cover save or has already delivered its contents. With a 4+ cover save it is functionally twice as hard to kill. And once it has delivered the contents it is also much more survivable, as A) your opponent has assault units rampaging in his lines to worry about, and B) The SR itself no longer has assault units aboard, so is no longer such a high-priority, high-reward target. The turn after you drop your assaulters is when you should be shooting your missiles; or the turn after that if it's Shaken. You also have much easier access to side or rear armor when you're at midfield or in the opponent's half of the table.

Niiai wrote:In shor compare death company units with these units:

Khorne Berzerkers and Plaguemarines? Notice anything? Oh yeah, they are better then both and they cost less than any of them.

The DC are more or comparably-expensive once you give them weapons. And they have Rage. And they aren't scoring. I've used and liked both Berserkers and PMs, but I'm still working on lists to make DC worth including in my BA. I don't think I'll even consider them in games below 1750.

"The DC are more or comparably-expensive once you give them weapons. And they have Rage. And they aren't scoring. I've used and liked both Berserkers and PMs, but I'm still working on lists to make DC worth including in my BA. I don't think I'll even consider them in games below 1750. "

While this is true you are still paying 20 points for a what is a powerhouse. True no invonerable save, but you need to hit them with power weaponds or nothing at all. 3+ and +4, SW 5 4 attacks on the charge is just to bad for 20 points. True you buy 1 or two swords (1 I would advice) and 1 fist and 1 hammer. And the Rhino. It is not cheap, but it is quite cheap for what you pay for it.

I do agree that you want to maxemise your presence on turn 1, but the stormraven will die turn 1 if it starts on the table. The stormraven from reserve will probably kill 2 things and if you do have death company dreadnoughts in your army you will probably kill something. Although, if you have 15 death company you can probably afford 3 death company dreadnought instead of the 1 DCD and 1 Storm Raven.

I disagree that for 20 points 4 WS 5 attacks on the charge is not worth it. The problem is that you really do need to give them chaplain support. I run my DC squad 9 strong and the only upgrade they get is a single fist or if I have 5 spare points a TH. I have had really good luck having them hop out of a Storm Raven and eat units. The Chaplain addition (or in my case a Reclusiarch) allows me to drown my target in 32 S5 I5 attacks that are re-rolling to hit and to wound.

The support they require does make them more expensive than berserkers or plague marines in the bigger picture but really its more like getting elite hitting power from a troop choice. I have chosen to focus on what the unit has for strengths, which IMHO is a devastating charge and synergy with my HQ. I chose to mech them up to help with their biggest liability (rage) and also because that further meshes with my list.

I feel that the biggest risk with the Unit is the potential to overspend on it. They can have so many toys and it can be tempting to make them more deadly, but from my experiences I've found they don't need it.
YMMV though hope this helps.

Cheers,
~Volkan

I don't really mind their cost when a 385 point squad eats 500-700 points all on their own.

I find that my Death Company perform in one of two ways: either they slay absolutely everything, or they get owned right away. There's very little inbetween with them.

I like to run five DC (jump packs) with Lemartes in a Stormraven. The DC have two power swords, power fist and an infernus pistol. I also attach a DC dread (heavy flamer and Blood Talons). This is a very hard hitting unit in close combat and can even take out units like TWC.

I disagree with the statement that the Stormraven should always be moving flat-out at the beginning of the game... The Bloodstrike missile has 60" range so often through good deployment you can outrange the opponent and alpha strike them with your missiles. Once you start moving flat-out it's going to be hard to fire all your missiles.

Not an expert on DC but I like the look of a small squad with a chaplain, all geared up with power weapons (one with fist). Get them a ride (land raider or storm raven) and they are your anti-elite unit and general counter charger. TH/SS terminators? On the charge the chaplain and 4 PW death comany will almost kill 5 before they get to swing. Certainly they are situational and they get wrecked by stuff like incubi that go first and ignore armor and fnP, but overall a very potent unit. Credit goes to DarthDiggler on this unit btw, he mentioned this awhile back and the idea stuck with me.

But I like the other setups mentioned previously as well.