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Haemonculus (shattershard, animus vitae) 75pts
9 Wyches (Hekatrix, agoniser, razorflails, raider, shock prow, flickerfield) 205pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
4 Trueborn (4 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 173pts
4 Beastmasters (10 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 228pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Razorwing (quad monosythes, flickerfield) 155pts

Total 1441

Any advice would be hugely appreciated, also major thanks to Dashofpepper for helping me write this!
Plus any suggestions on what to spend the final 60pts on?

Have you thought about swapping one of the troops out and using Wracks? Add the Haemonculi and you have a FNP/FC killing machine.

Yeah, that's a nice idea actually. (Btw do you know if gw is releasing plastic wracks anytime soon?)

Haemonculus (shattershard, scissorhand) 80pts
9 Wracks (Acothyst, scissorhand, liqifier gun, raider, shock prow, flickerfield) 200pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
4 Trueborn (4 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 173pts
4 Beastmasters (10 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 228pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Razorwing (quad monosythes, flickerfield) 155pts

Now still got 65pts to play with?

I would add shattershard missiles, remove shockprow from raider and add a beastmaster with 2 razorwing flocks. then you have it at 1498

I will probably never be convinced that a razorwing can contribute more to a battle than a ravager with triple dark lances, especially in this mechanized world - I would definitely switch them out. ><

I've had a lot of success with a razorwing which I hold in reserve so that I can pop some transports before it comes in and unloads. Of course my list doesn't have quite as many venoms as yours so it's possible that you have your anti-infantry more than covered and that a 3rd ravager might serve you better here.

A Razor has only slightly less AT than a Ravager anyway, and the option to nuke any exposed infantry squad is great. Plus Razorwings are beast against Nid's and Orks.

Suggestions for the remaining 65pts Dash?

Dashofpepper wrote:I will probably never be convinced that a razorwing can contribute more to a battle than a ravager with triple dark lances, especially in this mechanized world - I would definitely switch them out. ><

I have to admit that I have had really good luck with the RWJF in the games I've proxied one or more. They're completely unfair against Tyranids or Ork Hordes. Even with a KFF, one salvo of four large blasts eliminates just stupid amounts of boyz.

In our area, even with the mech heavy metagame, there are still lots of armies that will have one or more units of walking guys that really need to die. Whether they are IG blob platoons, SW longfang packs, Ork Lootas, CSM Havocs, fat units of Hellions in cover, or any of a number of other squads, the sheer number of saves forced by the four missiles can render that target unit pretty much nonviable for the rest of the game, assuming the unit is not destroyed outright. The funny thing is that after the 'Fighter has released its missile payload, it tends to survive longer than most other models because it is then less of a threat than my two Ravagers or my Raiders bearing troops. In fact, one helped me win a game on Monday because it was still alive at the bottom of turn six to make a 36" Flat Out move to contest an objective.

Now, I'm not saying that the Razorwing or Voidraven are the best thing in the universe or anything, but I honestly think I will always find a way to have one in any game over 1500 points.

I'm sure you'll get different opnions but I think wyches are better than wracks. The ability to fleet and be safe in cc is huge.

Unless I'm missing something, you trueborn squad is over by 5pts.

I also think ravagers are better than razorwings. If you plan on facing lots of horde then maybe its worth it. If you do face lots of horde, wracks will be a better choice than wyches.

The Razorwing, imo is too expensive in a 1500 point game. I've had good success testing them out, but they're just too expensive in a low point game.

I disagree with the wracks over wyches though. Granted, they will hit harder, and more in cc, but they do not have the option for Haywire grenades, no option for plasma grenades that elminate that nifty little thing called cover, and they don't have fleet in the event you just aren't sure about whether you can make it into assault or not. The Haemy will already be giving the Wyches a pain token, so they get fnp, but the wracks gain nothing "if they assault through cover" with furious charge.

What I would do is...

Haemonculus (shattershard) 65pts (Needs to stay on a boat, not in CC. He sucks in CC.)
9 Wyches (razorflail, Haywire Nades, raider, flickerfield) 188pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
4 Trueborn (4 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 173pts
4 Beastmasters (10 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 228pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Total 1499

I'm a little confused as to why people are constantly saying the Razor is too expensive for 1500pt games. Upgrading one FF Ravager to a FF Razorwing is a mere 40pts. The Razor maintains 2/3rds of the anti-tank the Ravager has, while (obviously) being an incredibly potent anti-infantry threat. The Razor can sit at 48" and unleash a salvo of high strength fire, then sit backfield and snipe at tanks. If your opponent discounts it as a threat after it's unloaded its missile payload, then punish him late game with a 36", objective contesting turbo-boost! This thing can deepstrike and still fire everything, or come in from reserve after your Ravager duo has popped a couple of transports and slaughter anything inside.

Now granted, I would never ever consider upgrading every Ravager to a Razor at 1500pts, but surely for 40pts, the sheer versatility of having even just one Razorwing is worth it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So maybe something like this now?

Haemonculus (shattershard) 65pts
9 Wyches (Haywire Grenades, razorflails, raider, shock prow, flickerfield) 195pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, Raider, shock prow) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, Raider, shock prow) 125pts
3 Trueborn (3 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 146pts
4 Beastmasters (8 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 204pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Razorwing (quad monosythes, flickerfield) 155pts

Thoughts please folks?

Thoughts:

What does the extra 40 pts buy? More anti infantry. What is Your army more than full of already? Anti infantry. That is why I think the ravager is a better buy. Your beast squad alone can do horrible things to infantry.

In my non-expert opinion of DE, that like orks, you have to expect any of your units to be destroyed if you opponents wants them to be. So, like orks, I feel the best way to counter this is to give them so many targets that they can't get them all. Yes, DE are faster than orks, I'm not saying that they are the same army but they aren't marines, they go down quite easily.

I also feel the wyches don't win combats - they tie up combats. An archon or succubus is needed to put hte bult of wounds out. A succubus can be a very cheap buy for a load of attacks.

Vrakk wrote:Thoughts:

What does the extra 40 pts buy? More anti infantry. What is Your army more than full of already? Anti infantry. That is why I think the ravager is a better buy. Your beast squad alone can do horrible things to infantry.

In my non-expert opinion of DE, that like orks, you have to expect any of your units to be destroyed if you opponents wants them to be. So, like orks, I feel the best way to counter this is to give them so many targets that they can't get them all. Yes, DE are faster than orks, I'm not saying that they are the same army but they aren't marines, they go down quite easily.

I also feel the wyches don't win combats - they tie up combats. An archon or succubus is needed to put hte bult of wounds out. A succubus can be a very cheap buy for a load of attacks.

Dark Eldar has lots of anti-infantry, but very little anti-horde. You could shoot your entire army at a unit of 30 Boyz and probably not kill it, definitely not kill it if it's in range of a KFF. A single salvo from a RWJF should completely neuter an entire squad.

On Monday in a league game against CSM, the firing from a single RWJF inflicted 23 wounds on a full squad of Autocannon Havocs, leaving one alive on turn one. That was shooting at a squad of 8 CSM that weren't terribly bunched up, and I didn't roll a single "hit" on the scatter die, though my distances were good on three of the four shots. The rest of my army was then able to focus in on his four Rhinos, because I could use terrain to avoid the majority of the rest of his long range anti-vehicle shooting. This is pretty indicative of how the RWJF has performed for me thus far. Early in the game, I pick an enemy unit that I don't want to have to deal with for the rest of the game, and that enemy unit gets rendered ineffectual from on round's shooting of one of my units. I've used it against Hive Guard units, Long Fangs, Boyz, etc; I've even used it to beat up a unit of War Walkers.

While the RWJF may not fit you individual playing style, or the metagame for your area, I strongly suggest giving them a serious play test before dismissing them out of hand.

Get back to your wracks, i personally feel they are always worth it. They will chew MEQ at any given time. I like that there are now 4 warrior squads. But get back that 4th trueborn guy, you will need him.

I don't think including an archon or succubus would be of massive benefit to this list. This list is intended to be a shooty list, that can quickly redeploy, with a couple of CC units (Beastmasters/ Wyches) to keep enemy CC units at arms length.

Yes, Wyches do tie units up, especially with FNP. That's exactly the role I intended for them- they're not some deathstar that crushes any unit in CC, they simply halt a squad of assualt marines, or something else in my face I'm not yet ready to deal with.

Beastmasters excel at whittling down units over several turns. Allocate PF attacks to Khymera, and low strengh hits to razorwings and you've got a very resiliant unit that's got reasonable offensive power.

Yeah, I really resent losing that 4th trueborn, but it allowed me to squeeze in one more Raider mounted warrior squad that puts out 2 darklight shots, and scores. And maybe 4 Trueborn is too bigger target, 3 is a sneaky threat that can sometimes slip under your oppenents radar.

I swapped out the shock prows on all raiders for FF on the two warrior transports. This means they can camp midfield and snipe odd stuff while still being reasonably protected.

So, finally, I think I'm happy with it.

Haemonculus (shattershard) 65pts
9 Wyches (Haywire Grenades, razorflails, raider, flickerfield) 190pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, Raider, FF) 130pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, Raider, FF) 130pts
3 Trueborn (3 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 146pts
4 Beastmasters (8 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 204pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Razorwing (quad monosythes, flickerfield) 155pts

Total 1500

(Oh, and the shattershard most certainly proved it's worth in a 1000pt practice game against my bro yesterday. He played 5 SS/TH termies, and they camped on the middle objective, I just couldn't shift 'em! So turn 5, my haemonculi pops along, disembarks by himself and catches all 5 under the template. I roll 3 5's and a 6, killing off 4 instantly! He ranted for 10 minutes, I felt terrible! Haha)

I also think ravagers are better than razorwings. If you plan on facing lots of horde then maybe its worth it. If you do face lots of horde, wracks will be a better choice than wyches.

Okay guys, played quite a few practice games this week, and I've got to say, I think triple Ravager may be the way to go. On average on AV12 or higher, 9 dark lances will score one glancing hit, and 2 penetrating hits. This is great, guarantees 3 vehivles not shooting you down next turn, giving you time to manouvre blaster toting warriors or trueborn into position.

So, saving the 40pts from the Razor gives me points to add a 4th trueborn, and flesh out the beast pack a bit.

So maybe,

Haemonculus (shattershard) 65pts
9 Wyches (Haywire Grenades, razorflails, raider, flickerfield) 190pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
4 Trueborn (4 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 173pts
4 Beastmasters (10 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 228pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts

Overall, I think it's got better redundancy and can bounce back better from poor dice rolls.

Thoughts?

That list looks really good, considering it's the list I've started running at 1500, and also the list I posted earlier in this thread.

Yeah the list looks solid, although i still prefer wracks. Also i really like the name of your kabal

Haha sorry Phish, didn't realise it was the exact same list! All credit to Phish then folks for being the first to run this!

Yeah Tmonster, me too, I spent AGES thinking of a cool name. I think Mirrored Altar is really subtle, and has lot's of meanings so I'm happy with it!