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I just played a game where I ran 2 vanilla Fire Prisms. They stood away and fired their weapons all game but did very little damage.

You need both prisms to fire a focused shot which is only S 9 AP2 I had 2 turns where it failed to pen a AV13 Predator. Then I had a chance to use dispersed fire on a Chaos Bezerker squad whose Rhino just exploded when one of my Wave Serpents (which had both guns blown off) ram it flat out across 24 inches. My 2 Prisms both didn't scatter, made a direct hit on 8 Bezerkers with both blasts and only killed 2 MEQs.

Is it just me or are Fire Prisms pretty underpowered? After the game my opponent said, they didn't scare me and he just ignored them the whole game since they only had peashooters for weapons. He recommended 3 squads of 3 War Walkers w/ Scatter lasers instead.

How do you make Fire Prisms work? Are War Walker that much superior? Fire Prisms definitely need a buff the next Eldar codex update.

Both of these are excellent units but they have very different pros and cons.

War Walkers have a mediocre BS. They hit with half their shots, so kitting them out for AV12+ anti-tank is unreliable--not because they cant do it, but for the cost compared to durability. They're cake to blow away and with 6 EMLs you can bet any good opponent will end them before they can shoot much. There are ways to protect them or you can even just suck it up and hope they get some good shooting in before they die, so that can still be viable.

Scatter Walkers however have very little capability against AV12 and none against 13+. So there it's a matter of target selection and what your goal is.

Fire Prisms on the other hand can drop AV12+ and have much longer range and better movement (very nice for contesting, shocking and ramming when they lose their guns). With holofields they're insanely durable and thus do not yield KPs easily. They have great AP too and so they can wreck units that are out of cover. But cover saves really hinder their usefulness against infantry. When shooting at units in cover I always use dispersed shots to get more hits and make them roll more saves (unless I need to cause instant death).

I love my Scatter walkers but my Prisms have earned my respect through solid performance as well. They can be disappointing but when they're not your opponent will feel it.

The Prism is S9 AP2 Small Blast without combining fire (you seem to be suggesting that they need to combine to get this). You are a tad unlucky to do nothing against a Predator in two rounds of shooting, but Eldar don't normally kill them by shooting them in the front armour from range anyway (you use your mobility to get side shots or dump melta into them up close). Against that Berzerker unit you would likely have been better off firing two focused shots (rather than 1 combined dispersed or 2 uncombined dispersed), when units are bunched up after their transport explodes you should easily be able to hit more with 2 small blasts than 1 large blast.

Tbh it just sounds like you were a tad unlucky with them, you can't write off a unit after a single game. Prisms are probably the second best Heavy Support option available to Eldar (after Falcons, followed by War Walkers). A large part of their strength is their versatility, which combined with their huge range means you can use them to hit either armour or infantry from anywhere on the board (depending on which is more important at the time). War Walkers are far easier to kill and tend to be much harder to fit into a mech list as they can slow you down, I certainly wouldn't call them superior.

Prisms might get a slight points drop or a slight buff (squadronable maybe) in the next Codex but I doubt you will see anything more than that.

Well when I use 2 Fire Prisms, I count the blast as TL S10 AP1. That's a big help right there, but most of the time I use the big blast at S6 AP3 and leave the anti tank duties to FDs and BLs

You should've shot that predator with the TL S10 AP1 blast. That option alone makes them good at AT.

Also, to put things into perspective, war walkers with 24 shots would've killed 3 Berzerkers on average. With poor rolling, like you seemed to have had, that numbers falls even lower. So it's not really fair to say WW are clearly a better choice in this scenario.

I play both 2x Fire Prisms and 3x WW in the same list. They are both excellent units, with different roles to play. And Prisms are far more than just their gun. They can be used to ram, contest, road block or grant movable cover to your other vehicles. At 115 for a bare Prism, I expect it'll get a slight decrease in cost with the next codex, maybe to 90-100 points, but even if they stay the same, they are useful and I don't expect them to change much with the new edition.

You guys have brought up really good points. There is no reason a skimmer should be shooting against front armor. I don't leave my Fire Prisms in the same place all game. Their skimmer movement is awesome for getting side shots. In that case, I find the non-combined focused shot to be more than enough to take down AV12. If I shake them, good enough for this turn, I'll try my luck with my other prism against a new target. I have a second chance at results. With totally reasonable rolling this gets the job done very well.

And I've seen numbers on shooting a single combined dispersed shot against MEQs out of cover vs 2 focused shots and the numbers showed the 2 shots to be favorable. I wish I had the link to post here.

I was also thinking of running 2x FPs and 3x WW in 1 squad in my list as well.

Is running 3 FPs just better or is taking up 1 slot with WW better?

I run 2 FPs and a Falcon with Scatter laser. This gives me a scoring tank with nice fire power for AT and taking out MCs. I don't favor mixing fast and slow units in my army. But it's really tempting for the variety in firepower. If it works for you, I'd like to see your follow-up comments.

I haven't tried 3 Prisms. It looks cool but I don't have 3 of them and typically prefer more variety.

Well I use that 2FP + WW combo and I can tell you that War walkers are deceptively slow. I say deceptively, because they can outflank on any side of the table and have range to shoot acroos half the board. That makes folks wary of advancing too far out, because then WW come in behind them and pour 24 S6 shots into the back of their Vindicator, Predator or Rhino, if there's no available infantry to shoot at.

If you use them cleverly, they will always come on board out of reach of an enemy assault and S5 and below shooting and in cover which they can easily get, they are extremely durable against one-shot wonders like LC or MLs. Only thing really dangerous are the autocannons and equivalents, but you can shut those down before they get to shoot if you plan ahead.

I've run 3 FP before. Against an ork horde they worked wonders. Against a marine rhino mounted army they worked wonders. Against other armies they seemed mediocre.
I'm currently collecting WW now, they few times i've used them they have performed admirably and in non-tournament games the wasps may prove very uiseful.

I always use 3 fire prisms. Never considered walkers because I like having all fast skimmers. But I am completely happy with the prisms' performance. As pointed out to the OP already, 2 prisms can fire a twin-linked BS4 S10 AP1 blast - which is pretty bloody good when you need a vehicle dead! I also use the single focussed blast against terminator/multiwound types and the large blast (combined or single) against large infantry squads. All-round a very flexible, mobile weapon.

DorianGray wrote:I was also thinking of running 2x FPs and 3x WW in 1 squad in my list as well.

Is running 3 FPs just better or is taking up 1 slot with WW better?

Obviously both are great choices. It depends what your list needs. They both can be kitted out to do the same stuff. (The walkers can be given star cannons for ap2 although few people apt for this.)

I see the FP as more versatile, as they have ap2 for feel no pain guys, an anti tank weapon, and an anti horde weapon. Further they are mobile. However, they are one weapon destroyed result from being not so useful. As was stated before the walkers are not susceptible to being killed by a single shot. They can also potentially tie up squads in hand to hand combat if need be. Lastly, I think that the walkers have a higher volume of fire per point.

Going against the grain here but I never use Fire Prisms for my anti tank.

Cons:
1 they are expensive.
2 unless you use both of them to twin link, I put them in the realm of: "All blast weapons are unreliable AT in 5th"
3 If they get a shaken, weapon destroyed or are blown up, there goes their effectiveness.
4 They are 1 target, so neutralization is easier

My Anti Tank is not War Walkers however, it is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent. If I have to suicide the FDs, then I still have a TL SL WS flying around, if it gets blown up, I still have FDs.

I kit my war walkers out with SL and use them for AV 10 or Anti Infantry duties. AV 11+ is a last option and only used if nothing else is around. I will shoot at 5 marines in cover before I waste all those shots on a potential damage on a rhino. They are fragile but in a squadron they can take a couple weapon destroyed or wrecks and still be a threat. Just keep them in cover and out of small arms range!

I never have used them due to WYSIWYG and points but a guided EML squadron would eat AV 10-12 alive.

They really shine vs squads of AV 10 vehicles like land speeders. You can cripple a unit with 1 volly from the SL.

Master Melta wrote:Going against the grain here but I never use Fire Prisms for my anti tank.

Cons:
1 they are expensive.
2 unless you use both of them to twin link, I put them in the realm of: "All blast weapons are unreliable AT in 5th"
3 If they get a shaken, weapon destroyed or are blown up, there goes their effectiveness.
4 They are 1 target, so neutralization is easier

My Anti Tank is not War Walkers however, it is Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent. If I have to suicide the FDs, then I still have a TL SL WS flying around, if it gets blown up, I still have FDs.

I kit my war walkers out with SL and use them for AV 10 or Anti Infantry duties. AV 11+ is a last option and only used if nothing else is around. I will shoot at 5 marines in cover before I waste all those shots on a potential damage on a rhino. They are fragile but in a squadron they can take a couple weapon destroyed or wrecks and still be a threat. Just keep them in cover and out of small arms range!

I never have used them due to WYSIWYG and points but a guided EML squadron would eat AV 10-12 alive.

They really shine vs squads of AV 10 vehicles like land speeders. You can cripple a unit with 1 volly from the SL.

1: Not really that expensive. 115 base for a really long range platform, and doesn't need much upgrades (if any) In eldar terms they are a bargain.

2: How are blast weapons unreliable? they auto hit 1/3 of the time, and effectively auto hit if they scatter equal or lesser than BS + size of unit/tank you are firing at. If you "miss" you can still hit other squads. TL is nice, but requied

3: So doesn't any vehicle, even war walker squadrons. You can also give the prism another gun for a smallish price so it can at least do something.

4: War walker squadrons are one target and have much shorter range. Is it easier to kill a unit that is at most 35 inches away (scatter laser walkers) with crap armor or a unit 59 inches away with AV12? I've suppressed (1 destroyed, 1 shaken, and one squadron destroyed due to immobile) a WW squadron in one devastator volley with MLs. A prism is much harder to harm, and can sit out of range.

Fire prisms as main anti tank is perhaps misusing them. Their purpose is long range utility fire support, as they can be effective at whatever unit type they choose to prey on.

Nearly anything in the eldar book can kill landspeeders. Eldar are the king of S6 even without war walkers. So why waste point on a unit that is really only good at putting torrent wounds on infantry and swatting flies? To really make WWs work, it requires a farseer or two. The unit + farseer build design isn't exactly the best thing in the world (cost + limited number of effective units per turn).

1. Yeah they are cheap if bare bones, but unless your oponent is incompetent, I doubt you will get 59 inches of range unopposed. I just think they are expensive for what you get, and if you twin link them you double the price for a single shot... gross

2. Auto hitting 1/3 of the time means they auto miss 2/3 the time. That is unreliable. I want 1/2 or better on my AT shots. Personal preference I suppose.

3. 1 shot can incapacitate the FP. 1 shot, unless an extremly luck S10 Blast, can only ever incapacitate 1 WW in a squadron. Beyond that, I agree.

4. I agree that you lose flexbility and range with the WW. However, 1 shot can incapacitate the FP.

FP fire support: I agree!

Land Speeder death, was an example but I agree with Farseer support they increase effectivness and price. I usually run a single, cheap Farseer so with me, it's moot.

Master Melta wrote:1. Yeah they are cheap if bare bones, but unless your oponent is incompetent, I doubt you will get 59 inches of range unopposed. I just think they are expensive for what you get, and if you twin link them you double the price for a single shot... gross

2. Auto hitting 1/3 of the time means they auto miss 2/3 the time. That is unreliable. I want 1/2 or better on my AT shots. Personal preference I suppose.

3. 1 shot can incapacitate the FP. 1 shot, unless an extremly luck S10 Blast, can only ever incapacitate 1 WW in a squadron. Beyond that, I agree.

4. I agree that you lose flexbility and range with the WW. However, 1 shot can incapacitate the FP.

FP fire support: I agree!

Land Speeder death, was an example but I agree with Farseer support they increase effectivness and price. I usually run a single, cheap Farseer so with me, it's moot.

Auto miss? There is a pretty good chance that it wont scatter enough to matter between BS and lowish rolling. At BS 4 it is a 44% chance of no scatter. A 61% chance that it will scatter 2 inches or less. Most vehicles have a long dimension long enough that this is still a hit, and some have widths that this is still a hit.

Other than this point I think we are pretty close in our thoughts on eldar, we just have different play style and prefereces.

With outflanking walkers i find it very frustrating if they come in too late or on the wrong side. So I usually run an Autarch and then since I've got him, hey why not grab some scorpions and deep striking spiders and now my list is totally different. The WWs are also not guided now and while that's not vitally important it's pretty sweet. I like outflanking walkers but I run them in other lists than my mech one. For that list, speed on a turn-by-turn basis is important to me.

Yknow, now that I think of it, I did run 3 scatter walkers with my Prisms once and they totally dominated the game. But that was against old DE and that board had great cover where they could enjoy cover saves from dark lances while pummeling ravagers, raiders and wyches. They really do own against AV10 open topped vehicles.

These are both excellent units. The Prisms are more expensive but can take on both tanks and infantry. The walkers when armed with Scatter lasers own all kinds of infantry.

I think you just got really unlucky with your armour pen rolls

An opponent worth his/her salt will target the FPs in each round in order to stun or shake it. I've done it with my vanilla SM army and it works.
This takes the sting out of the Prisms, twin linking is gone.

On the other hand, as a long-term Eldar player, I had never luck with the Fire Prisms, their blasts always had too less impact so that I'll no longer consider them in the 5th ed. Warwalkers on the other hand can fill gaps in the gun line. Say, there is this nasty lone Berzerker who refuses to die. But now Warwalkers are your last unit to shoot - you get the pt.

The other day I was playing Necrons, and since I have triple monoliths, I was really wishing that my opponent had brought war-walkers instead of Fire-Prisms.

I bring both. I have two fire prisms and one unit of War Walkers with Star Cannons that outflank. There is a prevalence of FNP in my area now so I had to go back to the Star Cannons over the Scatter Lasers. Oddly enough, the Star Cannons tend to kill more models than the Scatter Lasers ever did unless I'm facing a horde army.

If you take a prism, take two.

I think the best build has a full squad of WWs and 2 FPs.

Araenion wrote:I play both 2x Fire Prisms and 3x WW in the same list.

This is exactly my plan. Just need another Prism. My walkers are all dual scatter.

My last few games I've been running 2 walkers with scatter lasers, they do ok. Their amount of shots is the most worrying thing about them but their average BS and my poor rolling seems to make them only an annoyance. As for survivability i find the walkers to be on par with prisms.

The walkers can find cover easier (in my experiance) and having multiple models can really improve survivability. One weapons destroyed or shaken and you can still fire with the other(s).
For the prism one weapon destroyed or shaken does NOT mean you are useless. I always take spirit stones so i can at least move, and if i can move i can tank shock. So the loss of the main waepon is not a huge issue for me as it usually get 1 shot off when it moves onto the board/pops out from cover and throwing fire dragons down your enemies throats tends to result in the prism being alive for at least another turn, meaning a second shot most of the time. After that the enemy is in tank shock range so even if i do have the prism operational, i usually end up tank shocking anyway because its simply more fun than shooting! Especially if your tank shocking with 6+ skimmers in a turn.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:These are both excellent units. The Prisms are more expensive but can take on both tanks and infantry. The walkers when armed with Scatter lasers own all kinds of infantry.

That's not true. 3 Scatter Walkers is 180 and a naked Prism is 115. I run mine with stones and holos and even then they're 160.

And people just tagging my gun ships with missile for the shaken/stunned results is why I take the stones. As others have said, tank shocking and ramming are good options, but so is moving flat out and stopping in front of another skimmer that needs cover, particularly Serpents with important cargo. Of course you can contest too. But you can also use them to limit deep strike options, block infantry movement, block opponents' non-skimmer tanks and non-flying MCs. All of those things are situational and not without risk, but if you moved a lot even an MC will have a hard time hitting/penning you and with Holos there's not guarantee at all he will manage anything if he does.