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Honestly, even I don't know what the hell I'm looking at right now It explains the skin prosthetics at least. I just feel like in it's comparative minimalism I've been out-Gaga-ed even greater than the more elaborate attempts. At this point I'm definitely giving BTW the most "video not relevant to song" points, though we'll see how my opinion changes. The old school sci-fi elements are fairly entertaining at least.



Umm... thoughts?

Well, we've got most of the basic objections/rumors out of the way now After a day I'm liking the video more. It indirectly comments on a lot of things that have been said about her in weird ways and is setting... something up. I don't think it lives up to the hype but the last two vids haven't either.

Redbeard wrote:I don't think I've seen such an overly pretentious intro to a video since Michael Jackson's thriller - and we all know what a pedophile he turned out to be.

She's trying too hard to make statements instead of just making music (and letting that talk for her), which is what she's arguably good at.

In the case of this song in particular, it's meant to be a statement more than a song. The whole point was to create something like an anthem. Hopefully the rest of the new album is more like what you're saying, though at 20+ tracks there'd better be some good stuff in there We've already got a preview of the next vid here!

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:I actually liked it, although I think MTV exec's will be pulling their hair out on where to cut it for general viewing.

No doubt Is alien birthing considered offensive?

I hear Kelly's Walk Away more than Express Yourself in the chorus, though the latter seems to be the popular comparison. The chord structures are similar but I still feel a different song, if only because they both strike me as two different kinds of campy.

Another song (rather, a remix of a new song) has been made public!



Super special awesome! Love-love-love around 1:30

Edit: The ending of the track seems to adapt a very "New Order" by Blue Mondayish vibe. This track was taken from the bigger mix of a fashion show so it may actually be transitioning into the track as I think about it. We shall see though. If nothing else, maybe I called the new "copycat" claim

AvatarForm wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Absolute dog toffee. The song sounds more Madonna than Madonna as well!

Gaga copies Madonna and other 'artists' more than she is original.

warpcrafter wrote:Pfft!!! Sounds like Madonna meets Nine Inch Nails. By the way, Cannerus, your avatar makes me feel like a pedo.

I have a new challenge here Name an original artist.

AvatarForm wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I don't think I've seen such an overly pretentious intro to a video since Michael Jackson's thriller - and we all know what a pedophile he turned out to be.

She's trying too hard to make statements instead of just making music (and letting that talk for her), which is what she's arguably good at.

Also, has anyone actually listened to the opening words befoe this song? When you distill everything in this video the conclusion is this: Gaga and this video TRY to be something that they obviously are not...

The pseudo sci-fi, even the vocabulary is slapped together.

Albatross wrote:The intro to the video was pretty similar - it could have been great, but they just half-arsed it. It was a good idea, but as someone else said, it seemed a bit 'generic sci-fi' slapped together.

It involves a fair number of Gaga-isms from the past. It was the evolution of the manifesto, which was interesting to see; it was also intentionally campy. This vid feels more honest to me and let's itself be itself if that registers at all. It feels a bit less pretentious to me in that regard. Also bear in mind this is a sci-fi forum critiquing the quality of sci-fi, which is a little bit different of a situation.

Albatross wrote:Ok, so I finally gave in and watched the video.

*sigh*

The problem I have with Gaga is that she COULD be totally awesome. She has a platform to really shake things up, and a make a real statement - she is the new breed of modern popstar, in which authenticity and 'realness' are (rightly, in my opinion) considered passe and irrelevant. Her image, and to certain extent, her ethos, embody this.

But where she falls down is her music - it's not particularly terrible, it's just 'meh'. The REALLY frustrating thing is that it doesn't have to be! She could really start pushing some boudaries, like I said, she has a platform now, and she certainly has the musical talent. I was momentarily excited by the song in the first few seconds; I thought is was going to be a brutally minimalist neo-pop record, with a really harsh soundscape. What I got sounded a bit like Madonna (again), and there were snatches of melody that reminded me of 'Waterfalls' by TLC. Just average pop music. So frustrating.

I don't necessarily see the same issue here. She does shake things up as far as pop goes. Compare Gaga now to what Britney had become. There are worlds improvement and innovation in between. If you played 3 distinct subgenres of metal for many people, they would only hear "metal" or "heavy rock" and in many cases wouldn't hear a big enough difference to tell you if they're in different subgenres or not. If you take your average clubbing gay dude who just loves his pop singers, Gaga is shaking up the entire universe. This is terribly progressive, just not your flavor. Make sense? Also, I want to hear what Madonna song Government Hooker sounds like because I get the feeling people are just defaulting to that one out of bias

Albatross wrote:It's a shame, because she has the potential to be a great artist. Personally, it seems that she's either taking terrible advice, or on the flip-side, taking no advice or surrounding herself with sycophants who won't tell her when something isn't quite up to scratch.

I believe it is largely her vision. I also love the fact. I'd rather see one person be able to splash their creative mind on a world-wide canvas and get an unadulterated vision than have someone else interjecting their essence when it's unwanted. I obviously don't believe she does 100% of everything she's involved with, but I think she still bears creative control.

warpcrafter wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

I have a new challenge here Name an original artist.

Primus. I dare you to find any band who came before then who you could point to and say "They're ripping them off."

If you play any old funk album in fast forward you hear pretty much the same thing In all fairness though, I hear some Chili Peppers which were the same time frame and (obviously) a bit of Rush. Try naming one from the past 10 years how-about.

FITZZ wrote: The thing is, finding "originality" in most modern music would be rather difficult as most bands for the past 40 years have been "influenced" by other artist/styles.
However,one can find examples of "creativity" in how the same old same old is delivered.
Alice Cooper,for example was clearly inspired by the "shocking" rock music that preceded him,but put a twist on it's delivery...latter Marilyn Manson would come along and for all intents and purposes,emulate Coopers schtick...almost to a fault.
This is basically what I see GaGa doing,she's not really putting any real "Creativity" into what she does..she comes off more like a "copy and paste" of previous entertainers.

Originality and creativity are completely unrelated IMO. Creativity doesn't care if something has been done or not to be effective. I'm going to have to pull the artistic equivalent of a Godwin and claim Warhol If I weren't so high I'd give examples.

If she were only emulating Madonna I might agree. She's accused of emulating a countless number of people. There are similarities, but is Gaga really the exact same thing as Madonna? I'd call her significantly more creative. I'm surprised that you'd say Marilyn Manson isn't creative.

Just for grins:

http://www.aishamusic.com/lawsuit_many_artists_madonna_stole_from.htm
http://madonnarevelations.blogspot.com/2008/09/guy-bourdin-shes-not-me-shes-copy.html
http://antimadonna.dark-host.com/gallery_unoriginal/unoriginal1.html

AvatarForm wrote:David Bowie.

Was already covered here. Bowie was as original as Gaga is.

Albatross wrote:
Neu!

I'm not even going to try this game with you The track I heard from them sounded like the noise they would play in hell. I'm a little frightened, you jackoff

Albatross wrote:
Which is what? 'Be yourself', 'Wear interesting clothes'? Puh-lease. These are empty platitudes dressed up as philosophy, another major problem I have with her.

It's there for entertainment as far as I'm concerned. Her "message" might make some feel better, and if it makes even one political barrier get broken it's a good thing, but it's more a big experiment for me than anything else.

'Toxic' is better, and more creative than anything Gaga has done yet. Just as a point of discussion.

Britney didn't write Toxic as a side note, but Poker Face or Bad Romance I'd classify as both "more creative" and "better" without a second thought. not sure what you're seeing there that I'm not.

Condescending...

I like pop music, I listen to pop music - I can tell if (in my opinion) something is good, bad, or average pop music, and why. It's not like anyone's frame of reference is that far removed - we're not talking about west African music here (I wish we were). I see nothing in this particular Lady Gaga song that tips it above average, either in the composition or the production - APART from the aforementioned intro to the first verse (iirc), which, as I said, is how I wanted the song to sound as a whole.

I'm not sure what you mean when you refer to the first verse. Starting to border on subjectivity here, but very often music makes me terribly bored. Hers has enough interesting elements to draw me in and has "more going on" than other artists in the same genre. I'm sure if I could get the separate tracks for the electronics I could pin point what it is exactly, but I'm thankfully refraining because I'm glad just being able to enjoy something on it's own merits.

I believe it is largely her vision. I also love the fact. I'd rather see one person be able to splash their creative mind on a world-wide canvas and get an unadulterated vision than have someone else interjecting their essence when it's unwanted.

So...authenticity, in other words?

Actually I was going for egoism I get off on over confidence.

And there's no comparison between Bowie and Gaga. Come on.

They're equally original. That's all I ever said

Point. Set. Match: Jesus.

Let's not lose focus.

Also, Cannerus_The_Unbearable, the thread you linked had you showing how much of a Gaga fanboi you are, and then being shut down in subsequent posts.

Bowie IS original. Gaga is not.

Oh, ok. That clears it up. I was pointing to that thread to show evidence that Bowie wasn't "original," which was never proven. As for Kate Bush, I audited the first three tacks that popped up on Google and heard a singer who threw in a few accidentals. It wasn't anything I've never heard before.

I'm hoping, similar to what Ahtman said, we can get past the originality notion. Everyone is the sum of our experiences, some are just more honest about it and some get noticed more than others.

A few of the books I have bring up the balance of predictability in songwriting vs. shaking things up (the less educated version of what you just said). One needs the listener to be able to identify and feel at home with what's going on, yet have it hook them to begin with. From a technical standpoint, Gaga's songs are super-mega-hyperbolically-overloaded with hooks. That's the main difference between her and most of what else I hear on the radio. If we look at music like a steak, and hooks as a topping, many songs have one topping (maybe some sliced mushrooms). A Gaga song is less about the steak, and more about the toppings. The steak is still there, but it plays an equal role to everything else on top of it and on the plate. Some people just want their damn steak though

Albatross wrote:
Kate Bush fething rules, however.

I meant no disrespect, just arguing the originality point. I'd kinda like to drop her voice an octave on first hearing though as the squeaking was a bit much

Albatross wrote:What a tune.




I'm bang into this album - it's major influence on my band Dresden. Have I mentioned them?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this:



Goddammit! Forgot how good this record is - it's genuinely a record no serious collection should be without.

That track is very, very difficult to take seriously, and that's coming from the dude who likes the slightly-mannish chick in a meat dress The melody just sort of skips to random places not for any purpose I can find, but to be different, in addition to the overall feel being very generically 80s. It never really builds into anything, just kind of stands there like the awkward teenager at the dance. The song does not drastically change form beginning to end barring the intro. I suppose if you like the speed it's going that's fine, but I grew bored rather quickly.

I have a theory that goes as follows: If someone holds down a note on a synth and other noise happens to be occurring nearby, Alby will say it's a good song Bonus points if someone drones in a voice that grates on me

Ahtman wrote:Slightly-mannish?

That's a really, really old photo with horrible make up. I think she's gorgeous. Most of the Dakka user's wives would look different with or without (or even moreso with with really bad) make up I'd venture

corpsesarefun wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:That's a really, really old photo with horrible make up. I think she's gorgeous. Most of the Dakka user's wives would look different with or without (or even moreso with with really bad) make up I'd venture

If you look at photo's before she made it big she looks very, very different.
Even in the interview she had on a fairly big chatshow (Johnathon ross's) when she first came to the uk she looked totally different and dressed like anyone hollywood.

Why does it matter if she looked different? She's gone from brown hair, tanned, different nose shape, to very pale, gaunt and skinny to inbetween now.

Just like anyone

@caf: To be fair, annoying X fans are annoying. Annoying warhammer fans are annoying, annoying Bieber fans are annoying, annoying Obama/Bush/Palin fans are annoying. The public is on average a little more sensible than the loudest person out there.

@matty: Matthew Bellamy reminds me of John Kerry in that everything he sings tries to be epic, even when it's not

3 best songs IMO (super hard to pic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcjz1_3gh1s&playnext=1&list=PL84DBBE9846AB2E70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcHsE1ELzjo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWDmGrfDYzc

3 songs I think you might like best (counting the Stefani Germanotta stuff too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGEQVxKk1yk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJgfN84wCmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fvvddhdozM

If you only attempt one set, I'd say go for the latter as I'm guessing you wouldn't like most of her newer material.

That track is a little better (at least it has a discernible chorus). I'll avoid the autotune accusation. I love you too, MGS

AvatarForm wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: I'll avoid the autotune accusation.

Facts are not insults nor accusations.

She has a nose like Gonzo the Great and her 'music' would be even worse if not for the assistance that modern technology provides.

She sings just fine on her own. A couple of songs feature auto tune, one of which uses it as parody and the others use it to create extra parts in addition to the main melody. Is her voice adjusted through standard recording techniques? Yes, but no more so than any rock singer is.

For the record I meant no offense to Albatross, he's a good friend and probably one the most musically knowledegable people I know and I meant what I said as a joke. There are a few groups he's liked that use synths or have voices that bother me (Radiohead and Coldplay come to mind) and I was no way inferring anything about him and happen to have the Dresden album in my car. Just clearing the air.

The copycat claims I can deal with, calling someone out on something with no proof is a little irritating. She sang for all of 15 seconds on the last VMAs and stole the show, critics agreeing oddly enough. If you care for more proof, there are a few videos where her tracks drop out from behind her when the system messes up and she keeps singing, not counting acoustic performances. I'm up for arguing about the merits of originality or creativity in the name of fun, but not for having to defend the obvious as it's a little silly.

Amaya wrote:

I've never seen that one It was one of the unreleased tracks we waited forever to have leak. She rarely acknowledges that these tracks exist except by quoting them in interviews then giving a brief pause for the fans to freak out Awesome find!

Necros wrote:She'd be a lot better if all her songs were more like this one...

It'd be great if it was in the same key... Use this instead.

Chrysaor686 wrote:The problem I have with GaGa's 'creativity' is that it is completely unbridled. She forces her brain to vomit onto her 'canvas', and the masses are showered with the end result. She has absolutely no artistic restraint, no motive (other than to catch as many people's attention as possible), and no real end result in mind. Thus, I lose all respect for her as an artist.

Anyone is capable of creating the first thing that comes to mind. That is not the purpose of art. There is no defining premise behind any of her 'work', no desired result, and no attempt to shape any of it into something worthwhile or cohesive. Her very existance is like a slap in the face to those of us who are actually attempting to create something meaningful.

This is not creativity, it is chaos. There is a marked difference between the two.

Interesting that there's no point behind it all. Glad to see you've done your research and aren't just making a gut reaction to something that makes you uncomfortable

AvatarForm wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
Interesting that there's no point behind it all. Glad to see you've done your research and aren't just making a gut reaction to something that makes you uncomfortable

Similar to the gut reaction that makes you attracted to her?

I figured it was worth responding with the same caliber of argument as has been used so far in this thread. I have more, but you haven't earned hearing it yet. Pose a real question and I might answer it.

AvatarForm wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: I'll avoid the autotune accusation.

Facts are not insults nor accusations.

She has a nose like Gonzo the Great and her 'music' would be even worse if not for the assistance that modern technology provides.

AvatarForm wrote:

sebster wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:She has a nose like Gonzo the Great and her 'music' would be even worse if not for the assistance that modern technology provides.

Lady Gaga can certainly sing. There's a whole argument to be had about whether her approach to music actually drowns out her talent (and the contrast of her last couple of tracks being so bland musically and so weird in the videos certainly lend support to the argument) but I don't think it's very accurate to say she can't sing.

Please provide evidence. Everything so far indicates the contrary to your belief.

Autotune and other gimicks are not singing...

AvatarForm wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Shadowbrand wrote:Lady Gaga doesn't have a nice ass.

The Viking of Dakkadakka hath spoken!

Are you blind?

Are you confused?

Or do you have low standards?

Chrysaor686 wrote:The problem I have with GaGa's 'creativity' is that it is completely unbridled. She forces her brain to vomit onto her 'canvas', and the masses are showered with the end result. She has absolutely no artistic restraint, no motive (other than to catch as many people's attention as possible), and no real end result in mind. Thus, I lose all respect for her as an artist.

Anyone is capable of creating the first thing that comes to mind. That is not the purpose of art. There is no defining premise behind any of her 'work', no desired result, and no attempt to shape any of it into something worthwhile or cohesive. Her very existance is like a slap in the face to those of us who are actually attempting to create something meaningful.

This is not creativity, it is chaos. There is a marked difference between the two.

AvatarForm wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Absolute dog toffee. The song sounds more Madonna than Madonna as well!

Gaga copies Madonna and other 'artists' more than she is original.

cheesecat wrote:I also love how all the pictures are of her behind because not even Amaya wants to see her ape-like face.

warpcrafter wrote:

Pfft!!! Sounds like Madonna meets Nine Inch Nails. By the way, Cannerus, your avatar makes me feel like a pedo.

DickBandit wrote:I heard she is in fact a man.
Is this true?

Such wonderful arguments. The vast majority of this thread has been either accusations with a small pool of evidence (this sounds like this being the most common) or over the top hate. Mixed in with that are "This is my opinion posts" which I much, much prefer, entertaining accusations and a few good arguments.

The real question has been posed to yourself much earlier in the thread, asking you to explain why you enjoy GaGa and believe her to be an 'original' artist, etc. So far, your answers and arguement have not satified, nor convinced the opposition.

Has a single person actually asked me this? And since when do I need to justify liking an artist to you again? That's kinda screwed up. I just wanted to post the news that a new video was about and see some reactions, then added another song later. I've posted my story several times and if you're interested I'd tell you, though at this point I could say "because Jesus Christ, Mohammed and Zeus provably appeared to me and said to become a fanatic fanboy and that it would turn the world in to a paradise" and you would still poo-poo it so you get nothin' homeslice If you'd like to know, ask nicely and I'll assume you're not just going to needlessly tear my words to shreds with one-off accusations. It's actually fairly apparent that you've done no research whatsoever.

Mannahnin wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Wow. With that photopshop and makeup job, she looks remarkably similar to the 64 year old Cher.



No, but honestly: she has a perfectly nice body, and plastic surgery and makeup have made it so that her face isn't actually ugly. She's a typical butterface. Everything's nice but her face. The reality is that most Dakkanauts have been with or settled for worse. But she's not super-hot, by any means.

I've found with celebs it's very easy to find pictures that look like one another simply because they get so many pictures taken and do different photoshoots. I don't expect anyone to think she's super hot, but I also don't see why she's getting held to a standard where she has to be absolutely perfect. Just as an example, the somewhat recent thread about women we find attractive but aren't technically attractive had it's fair share of critique on women some considered... not so hot, but it managed not to be over the top. Gaga elicits big reactions one way or the other, much like Twilight and not so long ago Harry Potter

And I've been meaning too, just hadn't had time where I could sit down and really soak it in, which I like to do with music I'm not familiar with. My roommate is rather loud constantly and will play music, watch tv and leave the bathroom fan on all at once while blabbing non stop, which makes for a bad environment to enjoy music I might get around to it tonight, but should be able to tomorrow for sure.

AvatarForm wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:homeslice.

What does this mean in Texas?

It certainly isnt recognisable English.

I hope it is not a racial slur or direct insult, because that would be reportable.

You win the thread

This blog is hilarious. The angry fan rants make it even better. Also, some pics are NSFW.

http://ladygagaisunoriginal.tumblr.com/page/1

Mannahnin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dcHcH2FjVA

This track would be better if those guys would stop playing ping pong in the background But srsly, while it doesn't suffer completely from the static-ness I've complained about in other tracks, it failed to hook me at any point in particular. Just kinda did the same thing, then did the same thing louder with back-up singers til the outro when the orchestra clearly snorted a few lines of coke. While I wasn't exactly following the lyrics as much as the melody, I don't know what that burst at the end was for and it could have been any musical device and been just as ineffective for me. It probably doesn't help that I consider classical the most boring genre ever.

Mannahnin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoVVxom8GpY&feature=related

Prolly hate me for this, but I get a Police-ish vibe initially (not playing the "copy" game here, just giving a parallel), but at least a Police song would have picked up at some point. Musically, what's the point of this song? The only answer I can come up with is "to wallow." I'm not questioning his ability, but I'm just not hearing much of anything happening. I understand the absence of something happening can be it's own strong point, but not when... nothing happens.

I'd strongly suggest Dream Theater's Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence to give you a much, much more dynamic version of what the first track was doing (granted at 42 minutes it's a bit time consuming). I'd strongly suggest the Score version (it's live with full orchestra, but that album is worth it on many levels) but I can't find it, so 6doit it is:

Using "epic sounding" music to communicate feelings and a story; I honestly don't see the big difference aside from some genre elements. The big point I was trying to make was how what's going on musically changes every minute or so, whereas PG seems to pick one main sound for a song and it just sort of goes on til the song ends. That's perfectly fine if that sound is ideal to you, but not so much if you appreciate a bit of complexity. The latter stuff you posted I enjoyed a bit more as I'd call it less boring, though I honestly think a more energetic person covering the songs could make them sound more appealing to me.