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I run a Kan wall army, play mainly against MECH IG, and find that deff koptas are rather hit or miss. Here is my list for 1250 (approximately):

HQ
Big Mek with KFF
Big Mek with SAG

Elites
10 Lootas

Troops
29 Boyz, Nob, PK
29 Boyz, Nob, PK
8 grotz

Fast Attack
Deffkopta, TRL, BS
Deffkopta, TRL, BS

Heavy Support
3 Kans RL
3 Kans RL

(points might be a bit off, doing this from memory, but if there are more points available, they would go to lootas).

General deployment: mass Kans, Big Mek KFF, and Boss into a blob and advance (generally against a flank) while Lootas, Big Mek SAG and grots sit in deployment zone as fire support. With the Deffkoptas I will identify priority targets (since I play IG most often usually Leman Russes), use scout move/turbo boost to position them, and go for first turn suicide.

The problem I have is that the koptas are very hit or miss. IF I go first turn, they can at least assault their target (not necessarily destroy it, but assault it); if my opponent goes first, the koptas are normally taken out by the tremendous volume of fire available to Mech Gaurd. This is a problem because I have now spent one tenth of available points into units that provide a momentary distraction. It is worse in KP games since I have given them 2 free KP points on top of the cost of fielding the koptas.

Would it be better to put the points into Kans, and lose the mobility of the koptas, go for more lootas? I find two 30 boyz squads are unwieldy enough (trying to fit them into the bubble of the KFF/Kan Wall) that if I add a third unit it would just sit in the back, and that is a grotz job. I like the concept of deffkoptas, but again find their cost and reliability in low points games questionable.

If you are going 2nd against Mech guard, don't deploy the koptas, its better to outflank them than to throw them away. With 2 you have a 75% chance to get at least one on 2nd turn, and 25% to get both (and 25% to get none, but whatever). With outflanking, it puts that doubt in your enemies deployment. Guard really doesn't like anti tank units coming in from the sides (weak side and rear armors).

Koptas are generally suicide units, so don't be surprised when they die.

I personally think at such low points that the SAG gun is a bigger drain on points than anything else.

Also, your Grotz squad is illegal. Min 10 with 1 herder.

Split up your lootas, you aren't using your other elite slots, and 10 isn't really going to do anything for LD (and will draw too much fire). With 2 units of 5 you get the same average volume of fire (with a hedge against rolling a 1 for one squad), and can shoot at 2 different targets (and takes at least 2 units firing at them to get rid of them).

Greetings.

The SAG (as pointed out) isn't doing you any good, nor is your gretchin unit legal. 40 points gets you 10 gretchin and a runtherder.

You'd be well-advised to split your Lootas into two units of 5 instead of one unit of 10. Actually, I just noticed that notabot already said that.

I think that Deffkoptas will do you well. They're an obvious advantage if you go first, especially against Mech IG. If you're going second, you can either turbo-boost them around the field to draw fire away from kans and Lootas, or reserve them to contest objectives - probably leaning towards the latter.

Have to ask the same thing, though lowering the Point Value to 500 pts.

Trying to get a friend into the game, and playing the Orks instead of Chaos so I don't steamroll him.

Also, Deff Kopta Bombs, worth it?

Slarg232 wrote:Also, Deff Kopta Bombs, worth it?

No...Ive run these a few times and they pretty much suck. expensive 1 shot weapons that scatter and are as powerful as a bolter? Ill pass...

Slarg232 wrote:Have to ask the same thing, though lowering the Point Value to 500 pts.

Trying to get a friend into the game, and playing the Orks instead of Chaos so I don't steamroll him.

Also, Deff Kopta Bombs, worth it?

Man, I'd be the exact opposite. Getting out Chaos instead of Orks so I don't steamroll him. =p

Oops on Gretchin unit - what happens when one relies on memory without a codex on hand.

Also fair point on Mek with SAG - though I will miss the large blast template and the zanniness that followed (will always have a warm place in my heart for the time I rolled double fives on the strength check, which resulted in the unarmed Mek wrecking a Chimera. It can happen; Zoink treats the Mek as having initiated an assault, which activates furious charge, which gives the Mek 5 strength, which means on a roll of a six he can, unarmed, penetrate the rear armor of a chimera. Another six wrecked the sucker)

Notabot187: Koptas are generally suicide units, so don't be surprised when they die.

It is not that I mind suiciding the Koptas, I just want a guaranteed return on the investment. Independent koptas are seventy points and a kill point a piece for, again, variable results. If I put them into reserve, as you suggest, there is a fifty/fifty (for each, not combined) chance that they will come in turn two, and a one-third chance they will come in on a board edge I don't want them on. Also, I am giving up a kill point on the assumption it will earn me a kill point ... wouldn't it be better to field a unit that would earn me a kill point without giving one up?

If I ditched the koptas and SAG, then I would have enough points for fifteen commandos and Snikrot. This reduces number of kill points in my army by one, and would allow me to deploy the commandos from any board edge. On the charge Snikrot has six strength six attacks (four base, one for assault, one for having two close combat weapons - I could be wrong on this), which equals the number of attacks the two koptas had (at minus one strength, but higher initiative and chance to re-roll misses), not to mention the squad of boyz joining him. The boyz also make Snikrot far more durable than the two koptas.

If I just ditched the koptas, then I could pick up nine more Lootas, and thus field two squads of ten (assuming I finagled points elsewhere). They may only be able to target front armor, but they have the same strength as koptas, equivalent range (also if positioned right they may hit any spot on the board), and again are more durable.

So again, are Koptas really that cost effective in terms of kill points and points? I do like the thought of them as suicide drones zooming across the battlefield, but it seems that the Orks have other options that might make more sense.

You're looking it the wrong way... kopta is also great danger to opponent and he will use lots of firepower to take them out, giving your army free pass for one round... And it's pretty important to orks...
Also, mech is problem (more or less) to orks, so sacrificing one unit to take out vehicle (even if it's just rhino or so) is pretty useful... As loss of mobility against orks can be deadly


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the other hand I don't like kommandos... Too expensive for what they do imo... Never had too good experience with them:p

Chinchilla wrote:You're looking it the wrong way... kopta is also great danger to opponent and he will use lots of firepower to take them out, giving your army free pass for one round...

Doesn't take much to kill one anyway. The 24" mandatory boost at the start is about the only way to stop a lascannon shooting it down and even then I wouldn't think it was safe. I mean they're T4(5) so a krak missile can take them out in one shot. And with a 4+ armour save it just gives the enemy something to shoot at with infantry. Those 2 wounds mean jack all to the enemy. One strong shot from the enemy and bam it's a fireball.

Just one shot less at my army doesn't sway me. Deffkoptas are too fragile to make that much of a difference IMHO *points at warbikers*. However I think the others are right in this case: you kinda need them just to try and get one IG vehicle off the map. 2 seperate ones or a fullblown unit of 5 can attract way more firepower and give you more breathing space.

Course there's kommandos which the OP has suggested. Nice and sneaky with snikrot but would be prone to anti-infantry firepower that would otherwise be shooting the boyz. Handy but with that many points on one unit you won't enjoy it so much.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

Chinchilla wrote:You're looking it the wrong way... kopta is also great danger to opponent and he will use lots of firepower to take them out, giving your army free pass for one round...

Doesn't take much to kill one anyway. The 24" mandatory boost at the start is about the only way to stop a lascannon shooting it down and even then I wouldn't think it was safe. I mean they're T4(5) so a krak missile can take them out in one shot. And with a 4+ armour save it just gives the enemy something to shoot at with infantry. Those 2 wounds mean jack all to the enemy. One strong shot from the enemy and bam it's a fireball.

Just one shot less at my army doesn't sway me. Deffkoptas are too fragile to make that much of a difference IMHO *points at warbikers*. However I think the others are right in this case: you kinda need them just to try and get one IG vehicle off the map. 2 seperate ones or a fullblown unit of 5 can attract way more firepower and give you more breathing space.

Course there's kommandos which the OP has suggested. Nice and sneaky with snikrot but would be prone to anti-infantry firepower that would otherwise be shooting the boyz. Handy but with that many points on one unit you won't enjoy it so much.

I think lots of folks here are spot on in the comments, but I also think there is another way to look at them.

Units with different capabilities should NEVER be compared statline to statline. They should be looked at "how is this unit different, and what unique role can it fill".
Too many units are just place and roll - the "OP" codices have a plethora of these units...which makes them easier to be successful.

So, what do defkoptas do?

Yes, they have a few offensive weapons, which depending on your play style and the rest of your list may or may not be effective..

Yes, they attract shots; every krack missile that goes at a copta, is one that is not going at your trukk. If you don't hide them or bring them in later, they will die without numbers (as the other poster said) - this is the same reason nid players can't run low numbers of MC's.

They move as jetbikes.....ahhh...here it is. THIS is what makes them unique, and very very powerful.

Their movement allows a player controlling them to allocate firepower over a large area of the board. This should never, ever be underestimated. The ability to get over terrain or area denial units is absolutely amazing.

Need to get another unit into an assault?

Need to block a retreat to destroy a unit?

Need to deny an unit a regroup (yes, even marines need to NOT be in 6" of another unit),

Need to stop those pesky broadsides/longfangs/psykers from shooting at you for even a turn?

Need to contest that objective way in the back, or ON TOP OF A BUILDING that would take several turns for your foot guys to reach?

Need to get to that siege gun in the back which is raining no-cover save death on your can wall?

Need to quickly move a sacrificial unit in your own backfield to protect your troops from a charge from deep strikers (yes, this works, yes, it will freak out other players who would not conceive of it).

Again, every single piece of advice the other posters make here is good, I am not debating or arguing against any of it; if you are trying to compare them to another unit pure combat wise.
This is an apples to oranges comparison, and not their true strength (again, what unique ability do they bring to the codex?).

Their strength is the unique tactical ability they bring to the board, and in the hand of a player who exploits that ability as part of their plan, they are absolute gold.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Doesn't take much to kill one anyway. The 24" mandatory boost at the start is about the only way to stop a lascannon shooting it down and even then I wouldn't think it was safe. I mean they're T4(5) so a krak missile can take them out in one shot. And with a 4+ armour save it just gives the enemy something to shoot at with infantry. Those 2 wounds mean jack all to the enemy. One strong shot from the enemy and bam it's a fireball.

Just one shot less at my army doesn't sway me. Deffkoptas are too fragile to make that much of a difference IMHO *points at warbikers*. However I think the others are right in this case: you kinda need them just to try and get one IG vehicle off the map. 2 seperate ones or a fullblown unit of 5 can attract way more firepower and give you more breathing space.

Course there's kommandos which the OP has suggested. Nice and sneaky with snikrot but would be prone to anti-infantry firepower that would otherwise be shooting the boyz. Handy but with that many points on one unit you won't enjoy it so much.

Deffkoptas are very good. Yes, they can be one shot, but typically they will either be getting a 3++ save or be stuck in assault. Even if they only tie up the unit they assault for a game turn, that's still one less shooting phase the unit has against you. Perfect examples are Devestators or Long Fangs, which typically can't take more than a casualty without losing effectiveness. And tying them up keeps them from shooting you.

Transports tend to be used by assault armies, and killing a transport or two will break up the assault line of such an army. That means he's got less effective stuff coming into your kan line.

Hitting a tank obviously means you'll be taking less fire, as everything except an immobilized roll will keep it from shooting.

And you know, if my opponent wants to use his Str8 or higher weapons against my Koptas, more power too him. That's less Anti-Tank that my Kans have to deal with. You realize that a Vendetta with 3 twin linked lascannons is more likely to NOT kill a kopta than it is to kill one? There is no shooting that I fear with my Koptas. In fact, the only thing that my Koptas do fear is Power Weapons. They have a severe allergy to those.

Deffkoptas are only as good as you use them or the role you put them in. And because most people (on here at least) love using them as one-man str7-hitting rokkit-shooting jetbike-moving suicide unit, you WILL get a hit-and-miss with this unit.

And just because the enemy decided that it was important to shoot at it before the rest of your army doesn't make you any more safer. If I was the mech IG player I'd use all the anti infantry guns nearby to shoot that kopta to pieces then keep the anti-tank facing forwards. There goes the kopta and the kans still take heavy fire at a consistent rate. Guns didn't kill it? Then I'll let it ride about and try and hit a tank in CC. Its only str7 so it needs 4's to pen most rearends of IG tanks. And considering he'll be racing towards your lines to try and kill you with his units, you can expect to hit his rearend on a 4+ or a 6+.

Besides there's a lot of assumption and luck behind a kopta that really makes me dislike them. If anybody else does use them (most people apparently), all the power to them. I won't use a 70pt suicide unit to hold up one unit for a turn hoping it actually does something. I've tried them before, they always got shot, and my army barely noticed the difference from the recieving end.

You know, for the same cost as those Koptas you could have a Warboss on a Bike with a PK and Attack Squig. He won't hit them until turn 2, but he's a massive PITA to kill at this points level, and can cause tons of damage.

I think Deffkoptas are a great choice, but they die easily. This is fine, but in low points games you want to make every point count.

You may not have the model for a Biker Boss, but if you do, that's what I would do personally.

Also if you're running just 6 Kans and not using all HS three slots, consider running them as three groups of two. This will give you more target saturation along with more survivability (immob results stop being really painful after 1 kan down not two.)