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So I'm thinking of trying out a DE assault list. I still prefer them as a shooty list but here's my attempt at a tight points value assault list:

HQ:

Haemonculi - Liquifier, Agonizer :80

Haemonculi - Liquifier, Agonizer :80

Haemonculi - Liquifier, Power Weapon :70

ELITES:

4 Trueborn - 4 Blasters, Raider Flickerfields :178

4 Trueborn - 4 Blasters, Raider Flickerfields :178

TROOPS:

9 Wracks - Acothyst, Agoniser, Raider Flickerfields :190

9 Wracks - Acothyst, Agoniser, Raider Flickerfields :190

9 Wracks - Acothyst, Agoniser, Raider Flickerfields :190

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Ravager - flickerfields :115

Ravager - flickerfields :115

Ravager - flickerfields :115

TOTAL :1501

So I've only 22 Darklight weapons but this is mainly an assault list. Doh just realised I've no grenades and not got the codex on me have I enough points to switch the Haemonculi assault weapons? Thats probably my best bet. Serious anti-infantry from the assault and the liquifiers and those units should be able to handle pretty much anything upto and including assault Terminators. But 22 paper thin dark lights are my sole anti-tank and a Blessed Hull Landraider ends my day pretty quickly. Is that enough at this points level? Thoughts?

Any thoughts?

This is a terrible basis for an assault list. Wracks are the worst troop to give an agonizer to since you only have 2 attacks, not 3 that I think, you think you will get. You can only choose 1 special weapon to attack with. My assault list is based around Beastmasters, Wyches, and Hellions. All arguably stronger in CC then Wracks. Haemonculus with Wyches would be much stronger, and can have haywire grenades to engage tanks. Your trueborn are just as flimsy as your raiders. Also your haemoculus with a power weapons are a waste. They can get targets and dropped rather quickly. I would never do more then Venom blades on them, if that.

Wyches certainly aren't stronger in CC than Wracks! Hellions yes perhaps and Beastmasters I admit I've not seen much of and can be convinced either way on them.

I know the weakness of the Wrack agonizer but they need it for dealling with TEQs and to just give that extra CC punch. I know it's not an ideal choice but wasn't sure what was better?

If I was going with Hellions that would mean the Baron and a totally different style of list, which I would have serious AT concerns for. This is why i picked this type of list DE don't have melta and aren't as fast as the Vanilla marines I tend to favour so they always need plenty of DL firepower to deal with enemy armour before they strike in CC. Whilst Beast masters lack of mobility would mean they wouldn't suite this list.

I'm aware of the flimsyness of my AT fire power. Perhaps some retrofire jets on the Trueborn Raiders so I can go Ninja if I don't go first? Used to having the Duke around for a more shooty list allowing DS of my short ranged fire power.

FlingitNow wrote:
So I've only 22 Darklight weapons but this is mainly an assault list. Doh just realised I've no grenades and not got the codex on me have I enough points to switch the Haemonculi assault weapons? Thats probably my best bet. Serious anti-infantry from the assault and the liquifiers and those units should be able to handle pretty much anything upto and including assault Terminators. But 22 paper thin dark lights are my sole anti-tank and a Blessed Hull Landraider ends my day pretty quickly. Is that enough at this points level? Thoughts?

I'll tell you from experience that Grotesques and Haemonculi together really aren't that tremendous as anti infantry. The Liquifiers help, but their killliness drops off dramatically after the turn they charge and FC wears off. Poisoned attacks sounds really good, but they don't deny armor saves, so they tend to kill a lot fewer than you expect based on the number of wounds you cause. Also, the FNP is good on the unit, but a 6+/FNP save is only a little better than a regular 4+ save in HtH. Now, I don't think the combination sucks or anything, and I like the theme you're working with, but I'm just throwing out a warning for you to not be surprised if they don't perform quite so well as you expect. I suspect you might be able to make it work, but it'll take some really careful thought, and I suspect you will find some times where you wish you either had an invulnerable save or had a little longer range anti-infantry shooting.

As for the number of darklight weapons, I think you might have a sufficient number at this level. It might seem like not enough since 22 DL weapons focused on a single vehicle until it's dead will usually only kill (on average) one vehicle per turn, but you don't really need to kill the vehicles. Twenty-two DL weapons should get 7 rolls on the damage chart each turn. Most of the results prevent that vehicle from shooting at you.

It depends what you send them into. If you send 9 Wracks and the Haemonculi into 5 LC Terminators with and attached Libby with unleash range then you're all going to die. But if you get lucky on a Liquifier and dependant on him not being too lucky on his armour saves they should sweep away a unit of 5 Tactical Terminators in a turn, if you can kill 1-2 before assaulting that is.

If you can take out 2 with the liqifiers you then have:

Haemonculi - 4 attacks = 1 invun
Acothyst - 3 Attacks = ~ 1 invun. Therefore between them 1 dead Terminator

8 Wracks = 24 attacks = 12 hits = 9 wounds = 1.5 dead Terminators.

So they should be down to 1-0 guys before they get to strike. Same true if against LC Terminators. (Hammernators shouldn't result in a huge difference either leaving likely 1 left before he strikes). If you fire the DL from the raider into the squad first as well then you should be looking to wipe them out before they attack. Remember you have a 33% chance with each Liquifier to go straight through 2+ armour (50% for 3+).

Similar story with MEQs you want to break them and ideally you don't really want to sweep them. Obviously the Liqifiers are hugely variable so whilst sometimes you walk it others you'll struggle. I5 on the charge should mean you're dishing out the hurt before facing reprocusions. At 1500 30 guys that have 3 attacks each and re-roll to wound and have 6 template weapons is pretty serious anti-infantry.

22 DLs should comfortably kill 2-3 Vehicles a turn. It takes far less than 7 rolls on the damage table to take out a vehicle and not all Vehicles are armour 12+, most are armour 11 or 10 particularly if you can get side shots. The great thing being if you're against a JP BA list you've 22 AP2 Shots to thin his lines before assaulting him (as you've the longer assault range you should get the charge robbing him on FC). Likewise against Nid Tervigon spam without cover saves you should do 12 wounds killing 2 a turn, 1 if cover saves are available to him (which is less likely as he's MCs, 1.5 dying if he's a Venomthrope providing cover).

FlingitNow wrote:
22 DLs should comfortably kill 2-3 Vehicles a turn. It takes far less than 7 rolls on the damage table to take out a vehicle and not all Vehicles are armour 12+, most are armour 11 or 10 particularly if you can get side shots. The great thing being if you're against a JP BA list you've 22 AP2 Shots to thin his lines before assaulting him (as you've the longer assault range you should get the charge robbing him on FC). Likewise against Nid Tervigon spam without cover saves you should do 12 wounds killing 2 a turn, 1 if cover saves are available to him (which is less likely as he's MCs, 1.5 dying if he's a Venomthrope providing cover).

Um, absolutely not. Sorry to be confrontational, but that is totally inaccurate.

2/3 hit x 1/3 pen (glances aren't killing anything reliably) x 1/3 destroy = about a 7% chance of killing per shot. 22 shots should kill a little less than 1.5 per turn. Cut that number in half there is much cover available.

Even if the opponent is using all armor 10 vehicles, the math is 2/3 hit x 2/3 pen x 1/3 wrech = 14% chance to destroy, 7% with cover.

Against AV 11, the math comes out to about a 10% chance to destroy per shot with no cover.

The only way you're going to even reliably get 2+ kills per turn with 22 darklight weapons is against AV 10 with no cover saves. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that darklight weapons are sub-par anti-vehicle weapons in the current mech-heavy environment due to strength 8, low volume of fire, and lack of AP1.

I'm sorry I bothered to post on your thread with some of my experience playing DE; I had forgotten how completely unwilling you are to accept anyone else's input.

I'm going to avoid everything being said intentionally, and just focus on one thing.

FLingitNow, I think putting power weapons or agonizers on haemonculi is a mistake. They're great for passing on pain tokens to units, but with a 6+ armour save, *not* something I want to drop into combat as an IC who can be singled out. Combat support definitely. Liquifier, awesome. Even better if you give one of them a shattershard too. But I'd leave the power weapons off, and leave them out of combat.

Dash is 100% correct, Hamemonculi do not belong in combat. My favorite use for them is as a WWP delivery system or to give a pain token to wyches. With the wyches, I'll leave him in the raider to use the liquifier while the wyches assault.

Saldiven is also correct with his math. Dark light is not a great way to take out vehicles. The thing I have to tell myself constantly when I get upset that I have fired 12 shots into a vehicle and its still there is that a lance has less than an 8% chance to wreck/explode a AV12 closed-topped vehicle. I think you have a fair amount of dark light, just don't be surprised when after firing them all only one vehicle is destroyed.

Sure I can drop the power weapons from the Haemonculi. Shattershard is a good idea. But I will have to have them still attached to the wracks for the pain token and I don't overly care if they die.

Can they take phantasm grenade launchers (or can the Acothyst?) Haven't got my codex with me at the moment I think I should get grenades into the unit somehow.

You don't care if they die....why? They can pass the pain token to the wracks; they don't need to stay *with* the wracks. They can stay in the vehicle and become a portable flamer.

You especially should care if they die if your mission victory conditions involve victory or killpoints.

Common tactic for me (I use wyches, not wracks), is to move up 12", disembark the wyches to one side, with the haemonculi on the other (2" away so not attached) if there's a juicy target there. Then I shattershard something (or drop a liquifier on it), while the wyches assault whatever their target is (unless they're the same target). After that, my haemonculi is free to move around and template stuff or jump back into the raider/venom and go find something else to annnoy.

You don't care if they die....why? They can pass the pain token to the wracks; they don't need to stay *with* the wracks. They can stay in the vehicle and become a portable flamer.

Upon leaving a Wrack squad, a haemonculi can't pass a pain token to wracks since you have to spread the tokens as evenly as possible between the two units when he leaves the unit. Since Wracks already come with one and so does he...he can never pass his token after he leaves the unit as the tokens wouldn't be spread evenly. I also agree with Dash. Haemonculi suck in CC and should avoid it like the plague.

Totally forgot about wracks starting with a pain token. >< Now there's not even a good reason to put them in the same transport, and an even better reason to add wyches. =p Wracks for MEQs, wyches for terminators and MCs (dependent on power weapons and other stuff).

Why isn't there a good reason to put them in the same transport? The entire point of taking a Wrack + Haemie combo is to get Furious charge for that first assault. If he then dies great his pain token stays with the Wracks .

Because you can get more benefit from the hammy with a liquifier flying around in a venom or raider than in a squad that has to assault to be effective, meaning the hammy will be picked out quite quickly. The shattershard and liquifier are amazing weapons - especially if you consider their points cost.