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three questions here:

1. Barrage weapons do not ignore area terrain?
2. You have a manticore, it shoots D3 blast. The first scatter one. The second one hits, and the third scatter also hits. The rulebook states that you can place the blast anywhere and they can overlap. This means I can have them partially or even halfway overlapping another one of the blast, correct? Some would say that it can only hit where it originally hit or you can place it on the edge. But the rulebook states they can overlap. Some would interpret that as they overlap when they are on top of each other.


3. Can you assault a unit and end your move within 1" of a unit or model that you are not assaulting?

i've always played it as overlap wherever you want.

Tomb King wrote:1. Barrage weapons do not ignore area terrain?

For what? Cover? Or LOS?

2. You have a manticore, it shoots D3 blast. The first scatter one. The second one hits, and the third scatter also hits. The rulebook states that you can place the blast anywhere and they can overlap. This means I can have them partially or even halfway overlapping another one of the blast, correct? Some would say that it can only hit where it originally hit or you can place it on the edge. But the rulebook states they can overlap. Some would interpret that as they overlap when they are on top of each other.

There is no 'original hit' for multiple barrages. You place the first marker, and then roll scatter for the others without first placing them. The scatter roll determines whether you place the subsequent markers touching the first one's edge, or whether you can place them how you want... which includes being able to overlap them.

3. Can you assault a unit and end your move within 1" of a unit or model that you are not assaulting?

Yes. Stated explicitly on page 34 'Moving Assaulting Models'...

1) I assume you mean "does it ignore cover saves" - the answer is "no". If the blast centre hits area terrain there will always be cover for models in the area terrain

2) Yes, you can overlap as much or as little as you want on a "hit"

3) Yep, as Insaniak said - its in the rules for assaulting, stated explicitly. Change from 4th edition.

Whoa... I thought all template and blast weapons ignored cover for the purpose of cover saves!

Is this not the case?

I mean, Battle Cannons always wreck my SM scouts hidden in a crater! Boo-Hoo!

no no no.

It will only ignore cover if it says it in the stat line for the gun.

I'm not sure if all templates ignore cover, i'm assuming not but i might be wrong.

All "template" weapons ignore cover unless otherwise stated. But blast and large blast weapons have to say that it ignores cover.

IIRC, ordinance barrage makes you take cover from the center of the blast, so if you are in area terrain, you get cover, if you are standing behind you do not unless you have psychic power or something like that which grants cover.

Blast /= template

Template (i.e. the teardrop shape) innately ignores cover
Blast ONLY ignroes cover if it specifically states it does

With regards to cover saves and blast weapons... well, I'm no expert, but I thought it depends on whether the weapon is Barrage or not? For barrage, cover is calculated with the blast coming from the centre of the template, but for direct fire, it is taken along line of sight...

Could make a difference for a squad behind say, some sandbags... for example, no cover save against an earthshaker indirect fire, but a cover save if you fired directly (say, inside minimum range). For the scouts in a crater, assuming thats area terrain, they'd get the cover save either way (whether cover is taken from the gun barrel or from centre of blast, they're still in area terrain).

Otherwise, cover is only Always Ignored as a special rule, e.g. the Collosus or Nova Cannon. Am I right, or am I left?

Basilisks have a min range? I thought the Earthshaker just had a range of 120".

So if it fires indirectly, what is the min range.


Am i right in thinking that it can fire indirectly without LOS or is that a pipe dream?

One key thing to note, manticores do not fire as a multiple barrage.

Page 32 of the rule book states:

"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they all fire together in a salvo, as follows:"

However, the manticore has only one weapon with barrage, so it simply fires multiple independant blasts.

Basilisks have a 36 inch mininmum range and a 120 maximum they can't fire the eartheshaker at targets with in 36

I'd suggest rereading the Barrage rules, as you're fairly confused.

The entire POINT of Barrage is it lets you fire out of LOS.

You have 3 modes - direct, indirect (no LOS) and indirect (LOS)

Direct - needs LOS, cover is calculated as for every other weapon
Indirect (no LOS) - you dont reduce scatter by your BS, and must be shooting at targets over your minimum range which is clearly written in the COdex. Cover is from the centre of the blast
Indirect (LOS) - best of both worlds. You fire as Barrage, reduce by BS if you scatter, and cover is worked out from the centre of the blast. You also pin at -1

If you're in area terrain, however, barrage does nothing to your cover save, as there is still cover in between you and the centre of the blast.

Bassies, like all ordnance barrage (except those that explicitly say "must fire indirectly" like the Collossus and Griffin) can elect to fire directly at targets within LOS, ignoring the minimum range constraint...

(...nosferatu1001 beat me to it)

sweet. Wish i coudl field Bassies for my IW in normal 40k.

Arclaw wrote:Bassies, like all ordnance barrage (except those that explicitly say "must fire indirectly" like the Collossus and Griffin) can elect to fire directly at targets within LOS, ignoring the minimum range constraint...

(...nosferatu1001 beat me to it)

I have heard this before but i can't find the rule. Could you point me to the page please?

Pg. 58 - 'ordnance barrage weapons can choose to fire... either directly or as a barrage - declare before you fire. If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons (ignoring the minimum range in the weapon's profile).'

thank you

Trickstick wrote:One key thing to note, manticores do not fire as a multiple barrage.

Page 32 of the rule book states:

"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they all fire together in a salvo, as follows:"

However, the manticore has only one weapon with barrage, so it simply fires multiple independant blasts.

You are aware that Blasts rule for direct fire says the same thing, right? See Multiple Blasts, page 30. And that neither rule, direct or barrage, actually mentions what to do if you have multiple blasts from a single weapon.
So by the rules, there is no way to resolve multiple blasts from a single weapon. Course, there is at least one FAQ covering it, which says that multiple barrage shots from a single weapon are treated as a multiple barrage................
In other words, if it's barrage, resolve it using the multiple barrage rules, if it's direct fire, resolve it using the multiple blast rules.

don_mondo wrote:

Trickstick wrote:One key thing to note, manticores do not fire as a multiple barrage.

Page 32 of the rule book states:

"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they all fire together in a salvo, as follows:"

However, the manticore has only one weapon with barrage, so it simply fires multiple independant blasts.

You are aware that Blasts rule for direct fire says the same thing, right? See Multiple Blasts, page 30. And that neither rule, direct or barrage, actually mentions what to do if you have multiple blasts from a single weapon.
So by the rules, there is no way to resolve multiple blasts from a single weapon. Course, there is at least one FAQ covering it, which says that multiple barrage shots from a single weapon are treated as a multiple barrage................
In other words, if it's barrage, resolve it using the multiple barrage rules, if it's direct fire, resolve it using the multiple blast rules.

What do you mean? It says:

"If a unit is firing more than one blast weapon... , resolve each shot, one at the time, as described above."

You fire them all seperately, count up the total number of hits, and then work out wounds etc. Are you suggesting that you scatter multiple blasts in a similar way to multiple barrages?

Also, the d3 implies that you simply fire the weapon up to 3 times. There is no specific section detailing multi-shot barrage, but I see no need for one.

Last question guys for the most part you answered the way I thought you would.

I had someone try to argue that a vehicle firing out of area terrain gives cover it is 2" inside the area terrain. Even if their target is open. Am I right in saying only infantry suffer from the 2" of area terrain rule?

The 2" rule still applies to vehicles. However, distance is measure from the end of the weapons barrel, so it may be possible to be more than 2" into the terrain but still fire out if the end of your barrel is less than 2" away from the edge.

steeds of war wrote: Basilisks have a 36 inch mininmum range and a 120 maximum they can't fire the eartheshaker at targets with in 36

Yes it can if it fires directly. Direct fire negates all minimum range

Trickstick wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Trickstick wrote:One key thing to note, manticores do not fire as a multiple barrage.

Page 32 of the rule book states:

"If a unit has more than one barrage weapon, they all fire together in a salvo, as follows:"

However, the manticore has only one weapon with barrage, so it simply fires multiple independant blasts.

You are aware that Blasts rule for direct fire says the same thing, right? See Multiple Blasts, page 30. And that neither rule, direct or barrage, actually mentions what to do if you have multiple blasts from a single weapon.
So by the rules, there is no way to resolve multiple blasts from a single weapon. Course, there is at least one FAQ covering it, which says that multiple barrage shots from a single weapon are treated as a multiple barrage................
In other words, if it's barrage, resolve it using the multiple barrage rules, if it's direct fire, resolve it using the multiple blast rules.

What do you mean? It says:

"If a unit is firing more than one blast weapon... , resolve each shot, one at the time, as described above."

You fire them all seperately, count up the total number of hits, and then work out wounds etc. Are you suggesting that you scatter multiple blasts in a similar way to multiple barrages?

Also, the d3 implies that you simply fire the weapon up to 3 times. There is no specific section detailing multi-shot barrage, but I see no need for one.

Exactly, "if a unit is firing more than one blast weapon". So is the Manticore firing more than one blast weapon? No, it's firing one weapon with multiple (d3) blasts. So how is a thunderfire cannon with multiple blasts from a single weapon resolved? Or an Executioner Cannon with 3 blasts from a single weapon? Do we use multiple blast rules or multiple barrage rules? Why? Both deal with units that fire more than one blast marker, right? So what makes you choose one set of the rules over the other?
BTW, these are leading questions, and now I'll answer them. You use whichever set of rules the weapon in question fires by. If Barrage, you use multiple barrage, if direct fire, you use multiple blasts. As I stated earlier, we do have one FAQ (Eldar Reaper launcher thingie) to look to for an example.

Dang it, you are right. I concede the point good sir.

It even says, Ordnance Barrage D3 Large blast for a manticore!

Yes, but confusion can arise when the rules don't really cover single models firing multiple templates.

Trickstick wrote:the rules don't really cover single models firing multiple templates.

I disagree with this notion. The rules actually cover things like 'Blast 2' quite happily.

"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one" Page 30
"ROLL TO HIT - To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range." Page 17
"Some weapons... fire multiple shots. ...the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type. For example, a multi-laser fires three shots in each Shooting phase so its type is noted as Heavy 3." Page 27

So if firing a Grotzooka one simply replaces each roll to hit with the instructions for firing blast weapons. This because rolling to hit is actually an individual process (strictly speaking one shouold be rolling die one at a time except for scatter, LD tests or other two die tests =P ), so one has two shots, for each of them the roll to hit is replace by the blast actions - simple.

Page 30 explicitly says that you resolve each Blast shot independantly. The "touch the side" only applies to Barrage weapons. That one is a bit ambiguous though. Strict wording says that it only applies if more than one weapon is firing. However the rule is meant for Multiple Barrage markers and (at least to me) seems to indicate that it was also meant for Barrages that is one weapon, but have multiple shots. Take it with a grain of salt and be prepared if someone wants to go RAW.

Ok, so I should have said:

"Yes, but confusion can arise when the rules don't really cover single models firing multiple barrage templates."