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My question is the same as the topic. I'm not asking if they can be used in a competitive tournament environment. I'm also not asking I'd there are better elites in the codex. Can they be used in any useful way (even if only against friends)? If so, how? If not, why not?

Their special rules make them a totally fun unit, especially in a stealth-themed army. They're not bad in themselves, just in comparison to the other cooler elite units, that's why they're seen so rarely.

In a few special circumstances, I wish I had one, but most of the time the points would be better spent taking almost anything else.

2nd worst elite choice in my opinion.

Realistically, no.

Their stats for a combat unit are decidedly sub-par and the ruling that the most terrifyingly efficient ambush killer in the codex must stand around with his thumb up his butt for a turn before being allowed to assault means the only thing that could possibly redeem him is the much ballyhooed 'synergy' excuse in the Tryanid codex. Well the only advantages the Lictor has to offer to the rest of the army are either flat out broken to the point of uselessness, or helping things that are completely meaningless.

So no, there is no good way to use him. It's inevitable that someone's going to come in here and attempt to justify his existence because this is Dakka where someone has to prove to you that the sky is green just because you said it's blue but you really should just ignore them.

They'd be great if they could assault on the turn they appear. As it is, I guess they can contest objectives... :/

I like taking one...there is always a unit you can show up and say boo to...against dev squads...you take three and make them turn around...you get one to two turns of distraction and as tyranids all you need to do is get to turn three to win.

The special character one can be handy for the LD reduction on enemy psykers, especially in an environment where psykers lead the charge on most of the competitive armies out there, but even then you run the risk of your reduction not making a difference or the opponent getting his abilities off anyway.

The normal ones are awful. You'll lose close combats to things like Ratling Snipers and Eldar Rangers, the stuff the Lictor is supposed to exist to kill.

MikeMcSomething wrote:The special character one can be handy for the LD reduction on enemy psykers, especially in an environment where psykers lead the charge on most of the competitive armies out there, but even then you run the risk of your reduction not making a difference or the opponent getting his abilities off anyway.

The normal ones are awful. You'll lose close combats to things like Ratling Snipers and Eldar Rangers, the stuff the Lictor is supposed to exist to kill.

How on Earth would a unit of 3 Lictors lose combat to either of those? They ID the Rangers since they are STR 6, and they have rending. They also have frag grenades, and reroll all 1's in close combat, not to mention the 3 wounds. It's not the statline that's the issue, it's that they can't assault after they arrive.

They don't need to assault after they arrive. Two Lictors arriving within 6", and they can do that quite safely, is like landing an Assault Cannon. They can land anywhere, because they have Fleet and Move Through Cover, and the aforementioned Flesh Hooks. So they can start the game with a Cv3+.

Either use them for hunting down and killing small annoyances like Long Fangs, Lootas, Manticores, and whatnot, or use them to assault enemy units from another angle. Finally, in a pinch, you can use them to lock down an enemy unit in cover so that it can be assaulted next turn. Something to keep in mind is that they have Hit and Run with I6. Lictors can attack who they like, where they like. Ld10 makes them virtually independent when it comes to Instinctive Behaviour.

Remember, if you combine them with a Hive Commander or the Swarmlord, they'll arrive on T2 on 2+.

Like any unit in the Codex, they are okay if taken once, alright if taken twice, and good if taken three times. If you take two units, then you have a reasonable expectation of getting one of them on T2. If they survive to T3, suddenly all of your Genestealers, Shrikes, Raveners, Mawlocs, Trygons, Winged Tyrants arrive on 2+. If they get to use the Lictor's 6" rule, all the better.

Two units of three satifices, if it does not optimize. That leaves an Elite slot open for a brood of Venomthropes if you play to start anything on the board on T1, Ymgarl Genestealers if you don't, or some variety of Zoanthrope to ride in on a Mycetic Spore to crack tanks.

"Boo!"
"Arrrrgh Scary Monster! Quick dodge the hooks!!!"
*Monster then stands around for the next '2' minutes*
"Quick boys kill the monster, Kill The Monster, Shoot the Monster~!~ Smack the monster upside the head with a fister!!!"

Etc =(

I think they should have been able to assault if they managed certain conditions with the hooks.

Stealth and night fighting rules make them hard to move with shooting and 3 require a dedicated assault effort to move them. Put them in key terrain mid battle to ensure you have sufficient battlefield control.

Sounds like a use to me but its a very niche roll.

yeah.... lictor pretty much suck in the current dex. take Ymgarl. they are cheaper and way way better. plus they do what lictor are supposed to do and they do it better.

Think out of the box...

Pop him behind that pesky hydra/colossus/predator and shoot your s6 rending attacks at sweet rear armor.

Is it a sure thing? Nope, but it is a good use, especially if it is too crowded in the back field to reasonably deep strike.

Nurglitch wrote:

Remember, if you combine them with a Hive Commander or the Swarmlord, they'll arrive on T2 on 2+.

Like any unit in the Codex, they are okay if taken once, alright if taken twice, and good if taken three times. If you take two units, then you have a reasonable expectation of getting one of them on T2. If they survive to T3, suddenly all of your Genestealers, Shrikes, Raveners, Mawlocs, Trygons, Winged Tyrants arrive on 2+. If they get to use the Lictor's 6" rule, all the better.

Again...they have to be on the table for a turn before their reserve bonus and pheremone trail kicks in. If you have a Tyrant or Swarmlord, the Lictors can arrive T2 on a 3+, then IF they come in on T2 (and survive), on T3 everything else comes in automaticly rather than on a 2+ and can then also take advantage of the pheremone trail.

They don't outright suck, but they don't shine all that bright either for their points. In a friendly game you can certainly make use of them and have fun with them.

I wish they were better. I had a Lictor/genestealer (my two most favorite looking and prefered fluff 'Nids) infiltration army at one point a few years ago but ended up selling it.

Lictors don't Deep Strike. Their Chameleonic Skin means that they always start in reserve and once available may be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 1" away from any enemy model. They can't move or assault on the turn they arrive, but they can shoot and run.

Which therefore means you can place them within 6" of a target and they won't scatter or risk mishap. As I mentioned, two Lictors have something equivalent to an Assault Cannon (no AP, but them's the breaks). Three means six hots, three of which should hit, one of which should produce a penetrating hit on AV10 on 5+.

Compare to a unit of Hive Guard against the front of Rhinos and Chimeras. Three Hive Guard get six shots which should yield four hits, and two penetrating hits on a Rhino (4+), and occasionally more than one penetrating hit on a Chimera (5+). Chimeras are 3/4 AV10, and Rhinos 1/4.

If they get a charge, then each Lictor can get their two Flesh Hook shots, and then four Rending attacks re-rolling 1s to hit.

Then there's all the business about improving your reserve rolls and all that strategical stuff.

Now, that's not to say you should take Lictors instead of Hive Guard. You might want to take a unit of Hive Guard to force your opponent to bare his rear armour to your Lictor's shooting.

The strength of the Lictor comes from helping your army hit from all sides. The ability to get the first shot is something they share with Hive Guard in Mycetic Spores. In combination with Alien Cunning and/or Hive Commander, they'll have your all your reserve units coming in automatically (barring negative modifiers such as from the Master of the Fleet) on T3 if they appear on T2 and hole-up somewhere out of the way. With a 3+ (or even a 2+ with both) on T2, then 2/3 units of Lictors should arrive.

Remember, unlike the Lictor, the Hive Commander or Swarmlord simply needs to be alive, not necessarily on the board.

If you take one of these, then you can reasonably expect 2/3rds of your army to come in on T2, and the other 1/3 to come in on T3 automatically. I'd go with the Hive Commander as it can have Wings, and hence Deep Strike. Remember also that Mycetic Spores can mount back-armour punishing guns. Take a couple of Mawlocs to break up any parking lots or firebases that might occur, and if the enemy deploys entirely in reserves then deploy them on T1 and Burrow until a suitable target deploys for their consumption. Your opponent will expect you to try and use the Lictor's Pheromone Trail but you don't have to.

Remember, hitting with a Mawloc is basically 5+, or 0.33, in addition to permissable deviation. Permissable deviation is basically how far the large blast can deviate an not hit anything. If you can affect three targets, for example, without the Pheromone Trail and one target with the Phermone Trail, then you're better off going for the greater number of targets. That's because the opportunity to do nothing is balanced out by the opportunity to do 3x the damage.

Showing up automatically in T3 if both a Lictor and either a Hive Commander or a Swarm Lord are present really kicks the reliability of that attack up besides the possible reliability offered by the Lictor's Pheromone Trail.

Consider a Mawloc in an army where a Lictor is present on the board vs a Mawloc in an army where a Lictor is not present. The Mawloc is attacking a Chimera 18" away from the Lictors. The army is led by either a Swarm Lord or a Hive Commander. In the army where the Lictor is present by dint of rolling 3+ on T2 (0.66) and the Mawloc is automatically arriving from reserves (3+1 for Pheromone Trail, +1 for Hive Commander or Alien Cunning = 1+) on T3.

The reliability of that Mawloc scoring a hit on the Chimera, supposing the large blast marker can be moved up to 2.5" in any direction without any risk of missing, or rounding down to 2" for ease of calculation. That's 0.36 reliability, or 2+ on 2D6 in addition to 5+ for hits on the scatter dice. Total likelihood of a hit occuring would then be the reliability of the Lictor showing up on T2 multiplied by the reliability of the Mawloc hitting the Chimera.

The reliability of the Mawloc hitting the Chimera is a constant, the same for both. Likewise the reliability of showing up on T2 at 3+ is also a constant, and a bit of a wash at that. The difference is the likelihood of the Mawloc showing up in T2.

With a 0.5 reliability of showing up in T2, and 1.00 reliability of showing up in T3, the Lictor gives the Mawloc a 0.27 overall reliability of causing a hit by T3. It either shows up in T2 or T3.

Reduce that same reliability of showing up in T3 to 0.83, and the overall likelihood of causing a hit by T3 reduces to 0.24. It either shows up in T2, T3, or T4.

Now, the important thing is to be prepared for those times one cannot reasonably expect, but turn up most unreasonably. So what if everything shows up early though? Isn't that why you're taking a Lictor?

You know, I thought the same way about Mawlocs and Lictors. They give me a unique chance to control my reserves (along with Hive Commander too). But the games I have been playing, they contribue nothing to the fights. All of the players at my gaming group keep telling me that reserves is the worst idea ever because those dudes are not out there taking shots from their armies or contributing to the fight (Mawlocs and Lictors cant contribute to the fight anyways until the very earliest, T2). With that in mind, they basically say Mawlocs, Lictors, even Trygons are just bad because they will just always get blown off the board before they do anything meaningful for 170 and 200 point models.

I have seen some success with Lictors in terms of hurting vehicles but all of my games was over before the Lictors came in (with half my army missing from massed S8 weaponary or templates).

Well, that's the point of using the Hive Commander and/or the Swarm Lord and putting everything in reserves to it can either outflank or Deep Strike. You can't start with any models on the board, as that gives your opponent the opportunity to pick you apart so you turn up piecemeal.

Missing T1 is just an opportunity to miss out on being shelled silly by your opponent. Deep strike gives you the first shot, and outflanking lets you assault (hence the suggestion of Hormagaunts outflanking).

So your saying use Hive Commander to allow yourself to reserve everything T1 if you do not go first (or if you do not go first and they are an assaulty army) or only reserve the stuff that needs to be reserved (Lictors and any SPoding stuff) if you go first on T1?

sennacherib wrote:yeah.... lictor pretty much suck in the current dex. take Ymgarl. they are cheaper and way way better. plus they do what lictor are supposed to do and they do it better.

I agree, with something like dormat on the lictors, and the ability to attack right out of camo they would definately be more worth the cost.

Hey hey did I call it or what? Someone always tries to defend the horrible units and one-up everyone else by proving how they're a tactical genius and nobody else gets it the unit's just misunderstood everyone's horrible for not realizing how useful X guy is they're actually the best around.

Yeah. No.Lictors suck. Deal with it. (by not taking them in your army)

Their reserve roll bonus is functionally broken by being forced to put them in reserves with no choice available. Pheromone trail is the same way, and no trying to point out 'OH GOD THE MAWLOC IS SO UBER UR DUM U JUST DON'T UNDRSTND CUZ U R DUM' does not change that. Lictor shooting is pitiful, their stats are second rate, the price is over inflated and another unit in the exact same slot does their job better by a country mile (Ymgarls).

Zyllos:

Hive Commander simply gives you a bonus to your reserve rolls and allows a Troop choice to outflank. It simply makes your reserves more reliable and increases your army's ability to outflank units. Whether you take one, or a Swarm Lord, or both, you should reserve your whole army so that your enemy doesn't get T1 to shoot at you.

This means your army will start coming in on T2 via outflanking, deep strike, and chaemelonic skin. Going half and half, reserving some units and not others, is a great way to get the deployed units picked off before they do anything. The Hive Commander (and/or Alien Cunning) simply makes doing so more reliable, so you can bring more units in earlier, and all of them by T3 if a Lictor deployed on T2 survives until then.

Taking two units of Lictors without the reserve bonus means you have 0.75 reliability to have at least one Lictors on the board on T2. With the reserve bonus you have a 0.88 of having at least one unit of Lictors on the board.

Having the Lictors survive until T3 isn't difficult, thanks to chaemelonic skin allowing them to be placed somewhere safe.

The strategic upshot is that you should take at least two units of Lictors and roll for them last so that you can prioritize their placement based on safety (if few Tyranid units arrive on the board) or opportunity (if more Tyrand units arrive from reserves on T2.

In co-ordination with your other units that arrive on T2, you should factor in the value of a T3 charge into the deployment of your Lictor unit(s).

Remember that their primary value is being there on T3 for the reserve bonus (and to a much lesser extent their Pheromone Trail), their secondary value is the opportunity of a T3 charge in combination with other units, and their tertiary value is opportunity of cracking a transport or artillery tank with their Flesh Hooks on the turn they arrive.